# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1701 "2024-09-18T00:23:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who are the 5 center or center left members?. Gallant is the big one, and the one who could get others to follow too; we aren’t gonna play this game where I name other ministers you’ve never heard of and have no interest in. If Netanyahu is stupid enough to fire him from the Defense Minister post again, that could set things off. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1702 "2024-09-18T00:30:01Z")
Wait a second, you’re saying they could peel off Likud members. I think that’s a bit different. Your comments above seemed to heavily imply that the centrist parties other than Likud were at issue, apologies if I’m misreading your previous posts. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1703 "2024-09-18T00:43:48Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Your comments above seemed to heavily imply that the centrist parties other than Likud were at issue, apologies if I’m misreading your previous posts. Ah, I see what happened. Fuck. When I initially wrote an earlier post on the topic, I used the term ‘opposition’ (as well as ‘government’) colloquially, but then I figured that would be confusing, so I rewrote the post using the terms “in government” or “in opposition” the way they are used in parliamentary systems - if you’re an elected member of parliament but not part of the administration, you are “in opposition” and not “in government”. But I missed one colloquial use of “opposition” which probably makes my post incomprehensible. My bad on that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1704 "2024-09-18T00:47:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > He’s said openly that he doesn’t think there should be elections during the war. > > He has, but it’s not _up to him_, is it? > > That only helps him as long as the opposition agrees that this war is not the time for an election, correct? > > If the centrist or center left emergency government members agreed with you and thought Netanyahu was dragging on the war, they could stop him at any time. Revisiting this, even with your later explanation, it seems false on the facts, unless “centrist or center left” is expanded to an absurd degree. Even if Gallant got disgusted and left, how do you know 4 or 5 others would follow? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1705 "2024-09-18T01:12:49Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > So now, it’s time for making wild-ass guesses, based on zero evidence: why was the attack done today? Probably because of this: > **[Shin Bet says it foiled Hezbollah attempt to kill former top Israeli security...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/shin-bet-says-it-foiled-hezbollah-attempt-to-kill-former-top-israeli-security-official/)** > > Bomb would have been used in coming days, using remote detonation system from Lebanon; agency says same network was behind attack in Hayarkon Park in September 2023 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1706 "2024-09-18T06:31:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The ones who are, are in a very similar situation to Palestinians > [@Babale](#): > > Are fleeing an ongoing conflict by going to Algeria > [@Babale](#): > > The ones in camps in Kenya? Who, again, are fleeing ongoing conflicts > [@Babale](#): > > because there’s an _actual_ genocide going on there right now Ahh, so when you said “The only place in the world”, it _was_ bullshit. Since you acknowledge all these other occurrences of the exact same phenomenon. Down to the actual genocide (just like in Gaza). > [@Babale](#): > > if they were born there Aah, got it - all the babies born in all those _other_ UN refugee camps - magically no longer refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1707 "2024-09-18T06:52:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Aah, got it - all the babies born in all those _other_ UN refugee camps - magically no longer refugees. If you live in the same place where you were born then you cannot by definition be a refugee. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1708 "2024-09-18T07:14:17Z")
This is so easily disproven, I have to wonder your purpose in posting it. Stupidity or blind resistance to facts that disagree with your desired narrative? > Under international law and the principle of family unity, the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found. > **[Refugees | United Nations](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/refugees)** > > There were 110 million people forcibly displaced world-wide at the end of June 2023. Among those were 36.4 million refugees, (30.5 million refugees under UNHCR's mandate, and 5.94 million Palestine refugees under UNRWA's... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1709 "2024-09-18T07:19:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > by definition Which definition would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1710 "2024-09-18T07:46:10Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found. Well, that’s monstrously cruel. And you’re OK with this? The “durable solution” is for them to become citizens of the land in which they have been born. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1711 "2024-09-18T07:52:12Z")
I don’t see how being made citizens of an occupied state where they are subject to genocidal actions by their occupiers is a durable solution, but you clearly have your own definitions of other terms, so maybe you saw “durable” and substituted the “Final” you’d clearly prefer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1712 "2024-09-18T10:53:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > If Israel can make peace with most Palestinians and surrounding countries, they could work together against the death cults like Hamas and Hezbollah. > > How exactly do you see this working? Who can we talk to in order to sign a peace with the non Hamas Palestinians of Gaza? Get me their name and email and I’ll forward it to every member of Parliament right now Revisiting this - the main reason there’s no significant organized negotiating partner for peace among the Palestinians is that Netanyahu and his allies have systematically and purposefully defunded and disempowered the real possible partners and helped fund and empower extremist groups like Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1713 "2024-09-18T13:37:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > the main reason there’s no significant organized negotiating partner for peace among the Palestinians is that Netanyahu and his allies have systematically and purposefully defunded and disempowered the real possible partners and helped fund and empower extremist groups like Hamas. Lol, no. If that’s the “main reason” that there is no partner for peace on the Palestinian side, why has there not been any genuine partner for peace between 1947 and the late 90s when Bibi first rose to prominence? Netanyahu has a lot of influence over parliamentary politics, less so over space-time. The main reason that there is no significant voice for peace among the Palestinians is that at the moment too many Palestinians view the Jews as colonizers to be completely removed, not as neighbors to get along with. Hence the popularity of revanchist, maximalist slogans like “from the river to the sea”. This has been true since Palestinians rejected the partition plan in 1947 until today. The reason people like Netanyahu and his allies have any political clout whatsoever is that the Palestinians have shown over and over that they are not interested in a two-state solution. Until that changes, overwhelmingly defeating that bloc will remain a monumental task for those of us in Israel who _do_ support peace. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1714 "2024-09-18T14:00:22Z")
You’re talking distant past, I’m talking the last decade plus. In the last decade plus, Netanyahu and allies systematically and purposefully disempowered any possible reasonable Palestinian partners for peace, and purposefully empowered extremist groups like Hamas. Do you deny this? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1715 "2024-09-18T14:20:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re talking distant past, I’m talking the last decade plus. History didn’t start in the last decade plus. And it’s not like there was strong (or really any) support for a two state solution on the Palestinian side that Netanyahu torpedoed. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the last decade plus, Netanyahu and allies systematically and purposefully disempowered any possible reasonable Palestinian partners for peace, Who are these reasonable Palestinian partners for peace who were sidelined? I agree that Netanyahu’s policies have led to the entranchment of Hamas, but it’s not like Hamas was replacing a viable pro Peace alternative. And also, isn’t there another source of agency that you’re leaving out entirely here? Neither Netanyahu nor Israel is responsible for Hamas taking over Gaza in the first place. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and purposefully empowered extremist groups like Hamas You mean, when Netanyahu “gave Hamas briefcases of money” as he is often claimed? I mean, he did do that, but the money was humanitarian aid from Qatar. Should he have just said “sorry Gaza, now that Hamas took over in a coup, no humanitarian aid will eneter Gaza, period”? Maybe that IS what he should have said, but I’m pretty sure Israe’s critics wouldn’t approve of that policy, either. Should he have rooted out Hamas over a decade ago? Yes, in hindsight, he probably should have. (Not that you guys would have liked that - it would have meant doing precisely what we are doing now in 2014 or 2008. Which, again, in hindsight, would have probably been a better move than kicking the can down the road to 2024.) Did his policies lead to Hamas becoming the threat it is today? Yes, absolutely. He needs to own that. Did he “purposefully empower extremist groups like Hamas”? That depends on your definitions. You can make that case, but IMO you’re really stretching it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1716 "2024-09-18T14:22:42Z")
> **[For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)** > > The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from > According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. Doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to me. The current Israeli government is part of the perpetual war party, alongside Hamas and Hezbollah. There’s no chance for peace, and therefore no chance of security, as long as they’re in charge. And further carnage just helps all of them move further and further away from any chance at peace. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1717 "2024-09-18T14:41:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to me That article highlights the catastrophic mistakes I think Netanyahu has made in dealing with Hamas. It doesn’t mean he is responsible for Hamas taking over Gaza. And let’s both be honest here, it’s not like the anti Israel crowd would have approved of we kinetically removed Hamas back in 2008, or if we cut off all the Qatari aid money that was going into Gaza because we didn’t want to risk it falling into Hamas’ hands. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The current Israeli government is part of the perpetual war party, alongside Hamas and Hezbollah. There’s no chance for peace, and therefore no chance of security, as long as they’re in charge. And further carnage just helps all of them move further and further away from any chance at peace. If there was a genuine peace offer from the Palestinian side, Likud would have to engage with it, or it would not survive. Just like they did when the hawkish Likudnik Begin made peace with Egypt. Luckily for Netanyahu and for his far right allies, the Palestinian leadership has been completely incapable of making any concessions towards the existence of an Israeli state in any form whatsoever since 1947. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1718 "2024-09-18T14:53:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Assassinating enemies is one thing. Giving them grenades that explode in public is something else entirely. As more information comes out, I’m less sure about this. The morality of this depends on how much these tiny bombs create collateral damage. If the people who faced serious injury were overwhelmingly Hezbollah members, I retract what I said before about a terror attack, and definitely think this is a great way to go about targeting enemies. My initial impression was that many of the thousands of injured people were bystanders and not the pagers’ owners. Do we know whether that’s accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1719 "2024-09-18T14:53:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The current Israeli government is part of the perpetual war party, alongside Hamas and Hezbollah. There’s no chance for peace, and therefore no chance of security, as long as they’re in charge. More disturbingly, even outside of the Netanyahu government there appears to be no significant Israeli support for any meaningful peace initiative in the sense of genuinely recognizing Palestinian rights, sovereignty and equality. What pro-Israel war hawks mean by “peace” is basically “an indefinitely prolonged process of occupation and annexation in which Palestinians may at some future date attain some kind of increased control over some reduced part of the currently occupied territories, depending on conditions that we have the unilateral right to determine and modify, and in the meantime Palestinians don’t commit any violent acts or any other form of organized resistance.” And then the hawks complain that Palestinians persistently refuse to support such a vision for “peace”. Yeah, no shit. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1720 "2024-09-18T14:59:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What pro-Israel war hawks mean by “peace” is basically “an indefinitely prolonged process of occupation and annexation in which Palestinians may at some future date attain some kind of increased control over some reduced part of the currently occupied territories, depending on conditions that we have the unilateral right to determine and modify, and in the meantime Palestinians don’t commit any violent acts or any other form of organized resistance.” What pro-Palestine “doves” mean by “peace” is basically “Israel should allow themselves to be struck by whatever attacks the Palestinians can devise, and attackingback is evil and wrong because those nasty Jews are settler colonialists with no right to be there at all. Israel needs to unilaterally cease all hostilities and obviously then the Palestinians will suddenly reveal that all the talk about removing all the Jews between the river and the sea was just talk because they were frustrated by their oppression, clearly they don’t _really_ mean it.” > [@Kimstu](#): > > And then the hawks complain that Palestinians persistently refuse to support such a vision for “peace”. Yeah, no shit. And then the ‘doves’ complain that Israelis persistently refuse to trust that the people who keep saying ‘we want to kill you all’ and then trying to do so are actually going to love them if only Israelis put down their guns. Yeah, no shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=87)