# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/161 "2023-11-07T17:33:17Z")
“Why’d you make me hit you?” is _not_ the same language as “Why did that guy make me shoot him?”. > [@Riemann](#): > > it is not a something _peculiar_ to abusers. The very specific form I used is. > [@Riemann](#): > > We identify them by their actions. Yes - hitting people who did nothing to them, and then blaming them for it. That’s exactly what the stereotype is about. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/162 "2023-11-07T17:33:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The very specific form I used is. Then if the IDF had used this specific form of words it might be relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/163 "2023-11-07T17:34:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes Fine, so let’s move on to something more relevant than spurious claims about “abuser language”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/164 "2023-11-07T17:35:03Z")
It wasn’t the _IDF_ that I said was using that rhetoric. Nor did I claim it was a direct quote. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/165 "2023-11-07T17:38:36Z")
If you can find any logical sentence construction that has been used by anyone with relevance to this conflict that could not (with appropriate substitution of different causal act and different responsive act) be used in explaining a justified act, I will concede that the notion of “abuser language” is meaningful. What is relevant in identifying an abuser is whether the claimed causal act does actually justify the response, not the cause-and-effect language. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/166 "2023-11-07T17:39:34Z")
I don’t give a flying fuck what you’re willing to concede or not. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/167 "2023-11-07T17:40:30Z")
I’m sure you don’t, but that response implies that you’ve got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/168 "2023-11-07T17:42:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m sorry I clumped you and Babale in together as somehow being on the same side. _You’re_ clearly the frothing-at-the-mouth Palestine hater that’s been colouring my view of the entire pro-Israel side. Apologies, @Babale. Honestly, that’s not really necessary. As these debates have continued I got very sloppy. I started responding only to the harshest criticisms, those that used or implied terms like “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”, and perhaps even started interpreting criticisms that were nothing like that in the same light. At the same time I started ignoring jingoistic anti-Palestinian comments of the sort that earlier on I harshly criticized as “let’s you and him fight”. I didn’t do this because my voew of these comments changed, but because my emotional reaction to some of the arguments made in the thread made it difficult to properly prioritize both fronts of the debate. That’s a failure on my part, and it’s why I think I need some time away from posting on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/169 "2023-11-07T17:52:09Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m sure you don’t, but that response implies that you’ve got nothing. Infer what you like. My _intention_ was to indicate your attempted use of _logic_ when I was talking _rhetoric_ was a big, flat fail. Learn _which_ leg of the trivium you’re sucking at before you prematurely declare victory, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/170 "2023-11-07T21:02:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Either Israel should acknowledge and implement Palestinian sovereignty in an actual Palestinian state, or Israel should acknowledge and implement Palestinian rights as citizens of Israel. > > The first step towards implementing either of those options is the destruction of Hamas. I don’t think that’s fundamentally defensible as a “first step” or precondition of any kind. Palestinians having a right to exist with full citizenship rights in a sovereign state in their homeland, whether that state is a binational Israel-Palestine or a separate Palestinian state, is not conditional on whether or not some Palestinians are terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/171 "2023-11-07T22:11:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Palestinians having a right to exist with full citizenship rights in a sovereign state in their homeland, whether that state is a binational Israel-Palestine or a separate Palestinian state, is not conditional on whether or not some Palestinians are terrorists. No, but Israel recognizing specified borders and removing any Israeli assets beyond those borders is conditional on Israel feeling that the Palestinians can be trusted to not attack them, which in turn is dependent on whether some Palestinians are terrorists and specifically whether those terrorists are condoned or even abetted by the Palestinian leadership or arrested by it. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/172 "2023-11-07T23:13:03Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Palestinians pose almost no threat to the existence of Israel. Israelis pose an absolutely existential threat to the existence of Palestine. If things continue as they are, there will come a point where there is no Palestinian land, only Israel. If that’s true, then it’s only true at this moment, and it’d only be true at this moment because Hamas doesn’t _currently_ possess the necessary weapons to destroy Israel. Hamas are working very hard to change that. That alone is enough to justify labelling the Hamas regime as an existential threat. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/173 "2023-11-08T00:45:36Z")
…here is the Israeli Minister for the Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy Ron Dermer telling us that he doesn’t know how many civilians they’ve killed in Gaza. > I don’t know how anyone with a straight face could argue that this administration is taking care not to target civilians when they don’t even have any estimates on how many have been killed. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/174 "2023-11-08T14:43:46Z")
Advisor to Israeli government minister Ben-Gvir: [https://twitter.com/YishaiFleisher/status/1722164068276949350](https://twitter.com/YishaiFleisher/status/1722164068276949350) He writes: > [@](#): > > Gaza is ancient Jewish land… Israel must return to rule Gaza - that is historical justice. > ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/175 "2023-11-08T15:12:32Z")
It’s this sort of “it’s ours because God said so / here is a thing that happened centuries ago” nonsense that kills people. I mean, it’s not unique to the Middle East by any means. Look at the Yugoslavia catastrophe from the early 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/176 "2023-11-08T15:19:14Z")
How’s the regular response to these things go? “That’s unhelpful.” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/177 "2023-11-08T15:25:43Z")
It is easy enough to blame looneys, but guilt also lies with those who allow looneys to gain any measure of temporal power. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/178 "2023-11-08T15:27:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Look at the Yugoslavia catastrophe from the early 90s. That led to ethnic cleansing and the [Bosnian genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/179 "2023-11-08T15:34:27Z")
The real danger to Israel is not Hamas, which can’t do anything more than cause bloodshed, but what Israel does to itself in their response to Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/180 "2023-11-08T19:11:31Z")
UN secretary-general says there is something “clearly wrong” with Israel’s Gaza operation with regard to civilian deaths: > [@](#): > > “There are violations by Hamas when they have human shields. But when one looks at the number of civilians that were killed with the military operations, there is something that is clearly wrong,” Guterres told the Reuters NEXT conference. > > … > > While strongly condemning the Hamas attack on Israel, Guterres said that “we need to distinguish - Hamas is one thing, the Palestinian people (are) another.” > > “If we don’t make that distinction, I think it’s humanity itself that will lose its meaning,” Guterres said. > > Guterres compared the number of children being killed in Gaza with the toll in conflicts around the world that he reports on annually to the U.N. Security Council. On Monday, he said Gaza was becoming “a graveyard for children.” > > “Every year, the highest number of killings of children by any of the actors in all the conflicts that we witness is the maximum in the hundreds,” Guterres said. > > “We have in a few days in Gaza thousands and thousands of children killed, which means there is also something clearly wrong in the way military operations are being done,” he added. > **[UN chief says Gaza deaths show something 'wrong' with Israel tactics](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reuters-next-un-chief-says-gaza-deaths-show-something-wrong-with-israel-2023-11-08/)** > > United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said on Wednesday that the number of civilians killed in the Gaza Strip shows that there is something "clearly wrong" with Israel's military operations against Hamas Palestinian militants. Israel have, over the last couple of weeks, repeatedly called on the UN secretary-general to resign for his comments on the conflict. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=10)