# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 92
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1821 "2024-09-30T14:06:25Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I know this one! By accusing anyone that describes going into land that isn’t yours and settling it as the crime against humanity that it is of The Blood Libel! Right, cause we control the world’s media through accusations of antisemitism. [![](https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/TranslateHate_Web-goyim-InLine_300.png) ](https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/TranslateHate_Web-goyim-InLine_300.png) If that were true, you dumb, dense motherfucker, then _why do we have a negative word for it in fucking Hebrew?_ The correct answer is that Israel has nothing to do with the use of the term settlement in the English speaking world. But you’d never admit that when you can instead insinuate shit about nefarious Israeli influence. You slimy fucking piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1822 "2024-09-30T14:08:27Z")
I think I mostly agree with all this, with the add-on that the Israeli government is also part of the mindless “keep doing what they’re doing” crowd in bombing the ever loving shit out of Gaza and Lebanon (and continuing to mistreat Palestinians in the West Bank) with the hope that somehow this will change things. Let me add to the above that while Israel has definitely proved open to a peace agreement in the past, the current government is very clearly not. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1823 "2024-09-30T14:17:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Right, cause we control the world’s media through accusations of antisemitism. Umm, converting “how exactly would **Israel** control” to ‘the JEWS run the media’ was all you big guy. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1824 "2024-09-30T14:18:37Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Right, cause we control the world’s media through accusations of antisemitism. > > Umm, converting “how exactly would **Israel** control” to ‘the JEWS run the media’ was all you big guy I notice you still haven’t admitted that neither Israel nor the Jews is responsible for the use of the term “Settlements” in the English language. Because, once again, you are a slimy motherfucker piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1825 "2024-09-30T14:24:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Because, once again, you are a slimy motherfucker piece of shit. Me? Who the fuck just posted an anti-Semitic meme? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1826 "2024-09-30T14:25:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think I mostly agree with all this, with the add-on that the Israeli government is also part of the mindless “keep doing what they’re doing” crowd in bombing the ever loving shit out of Gaza and Lebanon (and continuing to mistreat Palestinians in the West Bank) with the hope that somehow this will change things. Well, that’s where I clearly disagree with you. Israel has not done anything like this since 2005 when we left the Gaza strip. Past engagements have been intentionally limited, withput the use of ground forces. This is the first time in two decades that we are going in with force and actually demolishing tunnels and eliminating terrorist cells block by block. So the approach to dealing with Hamas is a huge change. The approach to dealing with Hezbollah, so far, is more traditional - although also much more effective this time around - but we don’t occupy Lebanon, **thank God** , so fully rooting out Hezbollah doesn’t really need to be our objective. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let me add to the above that while Israel has definitely proved open to a peace agreement in the past, the current government is very clearly not. The current government is in place _because_ of Palestinian rejection of the peace process. If the Palestinians want to topple the Netanyahu regime, showing that they are willing to accept a two state solution would be like a kryptonite bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1827 "2024-09-30T14:26:50Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Me? Who the fuck just posted an anti-Semitic meme? I’m still waiting. It’s super easy, I’ll show you: “Crane’s insinuation that Israel is responsible for the use of the term “Settlement” in the English language is a ridiculous conspiracy theory”. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1828 "2024-09-30T14:30:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m still waiting. It’s super easy, I’ll show you: “Crane’s insinuation that Israel is responsible for the use of the term “Settlement” in the English language is a ridiculous conspiracy theory”. You already answered your own fucking question, > [@Babale](#): > > It’s not our fault that English doesn’t have two words for these two different meanings ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1829 "2024-09-30T14:42:39Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I’m still waiting. It’s super easy, I’ll show you: “Crane’s insinuation that Israel is responsible for the use of the term “Settlement” in the English language is a ridiculous conspiracy theory”. > > You already answered your own fucking question > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > It’s not our fault that English doesn’t have two words for these two different meanings I’m not asking a _question_; I am asking you to admit that it is true that Israel is not responsible to the English world choosing to use the term “Settlement”, since even after I made the post you quoted, you continued to insinuate that no, Israel IS responsible for this, by weaponizing accusations of antisemitism: > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > …and how exactly would Israel control which word the English speaking world uses to describe the settlements? > > I know this one! By accusing anyone that describes going into land that isn’t yours and settling it as the crime against humanity that it is of The Blood Libel! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1830 "2024-09-30T14:49:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The current government is in place _because_ of Palestinian rejection of the peace process. If the Palestinians want to topple the Netanyahu regime, showing that they are willing to accept a two state solution would be like a kryptonite bullet. I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement on the bombings, so I’ll move on from that. I think the above sentiment puts it all on the Palestinians, when that’s not fair. Palestinians in general, historically and today, have not had much real ability to choose their own leaders. Part of this is the fault of the Israeli right - especially in the last decade or two. They’ve made a point to deliberately elevate extremists like Hamas to the detriment of the less violent alternatives. Asking a young Palestinian civilian today, even absent bigoted educational systems (which are far from universal, in the WB or elsewhere), to see Israel as anything but a violent, bigoted oppressor is not realistic, and this is _almost entirely the fault of the Israeli government_. Israeli policy has ensured that moderate Palestinian voices are squelched and extremists amplified, as well as enabling the kind of violence that breeds more extremism. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1831 "2024-09-30T15:11:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Likewise, the only way for peace to come between Israel and Palestine is for Israelis and Palestinians to both realize that we are stuck with one another, and that no amount of fighting will ever drive either of us off the land. We don’t have to like each other; we just have to accept this reality and act accordingly. Agreed and that ship has sailed. As you have pointed out, there are factions on both sides that will prevent it. Israel has evolved into a militant ethnocracy that lacks a sufficient land base for survival. It’s existence depends on sponsorship by a major political entity. Currently the US finds support of Israel politically convenient. That could change. I believe Israel has no choice but to expand. That requires elimination of the Palestinian population. Gaza is a reasonable first step. But, it is an act of colonial expansion, not a patriotic mission covered by the ‘Remember Oct 7’ trope. This isn’t anything new. ‘Remember the Alamo’ covered a bunch of land developers who got caught. I am surprised that you are so unaware of propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1832 "2024-09-30T15:13:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel has not done anything like this since 2005 when we left the Gaza strip. Except for laying siege to the entire country. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1833 "2024-09-30T15:34:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the above sentiment puts it all on the Palestinians, when that’s not fair. I don’t know what to tell you. There’s one side that agreed to peace multiple times, and one that did not. That’s a factual statement. If you think the facts put more fault on one side than the other… 🤷‍♂️ > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Palestinians in general, historically and today, have not had much real ability to choose their own leaders. And? The Jordanians didn’t pick their king, the Japanese didn’t pick their emperor, what can you do? Their leaders are their leaders, and if they attack you, you fight back. I agree, most of the blame is on the Palestinian leadership, but it’s not like these leaders and their policies regarding Israel have ever been unpopular. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Part of this is the fault of the Israeli right - especially in the last decade or two. They’ve made a point to deliberately elevate extremists like Hamas to the detriment of the less violent alternatives. Sorry, but I think that’s vastly overblown as a cause. Even if Israeli policies had something to do with the growth of Hamas post 2007, Israel didn’t cause Hamas to arise in the first place or to overthrow Fatah; Israel isn’t responsible for Fatah itself being a vile terrorist group with their “Martyr’s Fund”; Israel didn’t cause Hezbollah or the Houthis or the Ayatollahs. You can’t blame the support for Islamic radicalism across all these different countries on Israeli policy. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Asking a young Palestinian civilian today, even absent bigoted educational systems (which are far from universal, in the WB or elsewhere), to see Israel as anything but a violent, bigoted oppressor is not realistic, and this is _almost entirely the fault of the Israeli government_. “Asking an Israeli today to see the Palestinian leadership as anything but violent, bigoted terrorists is not realistic, and this is _almost entirely the fault of the Palestinian leadership_”. Aren’t these statements equally true? How are they helpful? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israeli policy has ensured that moderate Palestinian voices are squelched and extremists amplified, as well as enabling the kind of violence that breeds more extremism. “Palestinian terrorism and repeated rejection of the two state solution has ensured that moderate Israeli voices are squelched and hardliners amplified, as well as enabling the kinds of terrorism that breeds fear and thus acceptance of the settlements” Everyone has plenty of grievances all around. The way we move forward is to get over it and accept that we are going to be neighbors for good. @iiandyiiii, I think this is a key point where we are speaking past one another: I’m not pointing out that the problem is Palestinian rejection of the two state solutionbecause I want to put _moral blame for the situation_ on the Palestinians. I’m pointing that out because _without this obstacle being removed, peace is impossible_. There are obviously obstacles on the Israeli side too. But the Israeli side has shown over and over that they can overcome those obstacles, and the Palestinian side had not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1834 "2024-09-30T15:39:31Z")
I’ll leave the rest of it alone, since I think we’ve drilled down to the crux of our disagreements, but I think the answer to the last statement is that this Israeli leadership is decidedly _not_ willing to change, or to do anything that substantially moves towards peace, and the WB practices and policies are the proof, since those are entirely within their control. We don’t and can’t really know what present day representative Palestinian leadership might be willing to do, because the Israeli right wing has purposefully suppressed any chance they could have any power. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1835 "2024-09-30T15:45:02Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Agreed and that ship has sailed. As you have pointed out, there are factions on both sides that will prevent it. The ship most certainly has not sailed; a two state solution is the only viable option. > [@Crane](#): > > Israel has evolved into a militant ethnocracy that lacks a sufficient land base for survival. It’s existence depends on sponsorship by a major political entity. Currently the US finds support of Israel politically convenient. That could change. (Citation needed) > [@Crane](#): > > I believe Israel has no choice but to expand And I believe you’re a moronic numbskull who bases his opinions on utter bullshit. What do you base this opinion on? > [@Crane](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Israel has not done anything like this since 2005 when we left the Gaza strip. > > Except for laying siege to the entire country. Like this = a full scale land invasion. So yes, blockading Gaza is not anything like a full scale ground invasion, and a full scale ground invasion was not done since before 2005. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1836 "2024-09-30T15:46:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We don’t and can’t really know what present day representative Palestinian leadership might be willing to do, because the Israeli right wing has purposefully suppressed any chance they could have any power. Sorry, but that’s nonsense. Palestinians have agency, and the Israeli right wing is not puppeting their leaders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1837 "2024-09-30T15:48:32Z")
Personal agency, maybe, at least if they’re not being brutalized by one group or another. But what political agency do they have? How could they make a change to their leadership? What is an individual Palestinian person supposed to do that won’t get him or her self beaten or killed? Israel could take action to encourage, elevate, and directly assist moderate voices. ISTM that they haven’t done this in any significant way for decades (and in recent years it’s been the opposite because Netanyahu wanted Hamas on the other side, not any moderate voices). ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1838 "2024-09-30T16:03:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > (Citation needed) Are you proposing that Israel is not an ethnocracy? I believe that it is widely promoted as a Jewish homeland. The militancy is obvious by Israels’ overwhelming response to the Oct 7 incursion. Is a citation required for those events? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1839 "2024-09-30T16:09:51Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Are you proposing that Israel is not an ethnocracy? Obviously it is not, since Arab citizens are equal under the law and even sit on Parliament… > [@Crane](#): > > believe that it is widely promoted as a Jewish homeland. Lots of other countries are homelands for their people; no one accuses France or Egypt or China of being an “ethnocracy”. Are the 22 Arab countries “Ethnocracies”? > [@Crane](#): > > The militancy is obvious by Israels’ overwhelming response to the Oct 7 incursion. Yes, when you are subject to a massive terrorist attack, a militaristic response is appropriate. > [@Crane](#): > > Is a citation required for those events? For one, you claimed that “Israel has no choice but to expand”… > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But what political agency do they have? How could they make a change to their leadership? What is an individual Palestinian person supposed to do that won’t get him or her self beaten or killed? Hamas and the PA aren’t forces of nature or alien creations. They represent the political will of the Palestinian people. If the Palestinian people wanted something vastly different, they could support a group that opposes Hamas or the PA. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israel could take action to encourage, elevate, and directly assist moderate voices. They _do_, all the time, with moderate Palestinians who live in Israel or the West. Pro Peace or anti Hamas Palestinians are constantly invited to speak, both in Israel and at pro Israel places across the West. What moderate voices within the actual Palestinian political system are we supposed to amplify? Are there any? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1840 "2024-09-30T16:15:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Hamas and the PA aren’t forces of nature or alien creations. They represent the political will of the Palestinian people. If the Palestinian people wanted something vastly different, they could support a group that opposes Hamas or the PA. How do you know? ISTM that the only election was years and years ago, and since then Netanyahu and allies have done their best to weaken any alternatives to Hamas. > [@](#): > > They _do_, all the time, with moderate Palestinians who live in Israel or the West. Pro Peace or anti Hamas Palestinians are constantly invited to speak, both in Israel and at pro Israel places across the West. > > What moderate voices within the actual Palestinian political system are we supposed to amplify? Are there any? How about Ayman Odeh? Not actually inside the Palestinian system (which barely seems to function these days), but a well known and ISTM moderate and reasonable pro Palestinian voice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=91) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=93)