# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1841 "2024-09-30T16:19:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How about Ayman Odeh? I agree, Israel should amplify his voice as a moderate. Can you think of any ways to do this? Ooh, ooh, I know, maybe he could become a member of the Knesset! Would that count as amplifying his voice? Hey, random question, what does Ayman Odeh do for a living? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1842 "2024-09-30T16:23:51Z")
Cute, but I know he’s in the Knesset. My point is that there are indeed moderate pro Palestinian voices, and Israeli leadership should elevate them rather than seek to minimize them, as they have. That’s the disagreement here, I think. I think the big story on this issue is that Netanyahu and allies have very substantially and very deliberately sought to empower Hamas/extremists and weaken moderate voices, and you disagree. We can leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1843 "2024-09-30T16:31:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s the disagreement here, I think. I think the big story on this issue is that Netanyahu and allies have very substantially and very deliberately sought to empower Hamas/extremists and weaken moderate voices, and you disagree. We can leave it there. I agree that Netanyahu did plenty of fucked up shit. However, that’s not enough to put the blame for the conflict on him. The question we need to ask is “but for”. But for Netanyahu’s actions, what would the situation be? I blame him for Oct 7, in the sense that BUT FOR his actions with the Judicial overhaul attempt, or his allies’ actions in the West Bank requiring many soldiers to be moved from the Gaza border to securing settlements, Israel should have been able to detect and stop the buildup for Oct 7; instead, we were distracted by infighting and West Bank nonsense. But I don’t blame him for the fact that the Palestinians have no interest in a two state solution, because they had no interest in a two state solution long before he ever showed up. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cute, but I know he’s in the Knesset. My point is that there are indeed moderate pro Palestinian voices, and Israeli leadership should elevate them rather than seek to minimize them, as they have. And _my_ point is that moderate Pro Palestinian voices can be found in Israel, even in positions of power. That’s because contrary to your claim Israel does not actually suppress these voices. They cannot be found in the leadership of the Palestinian territories. It’s ridiculous to blame Israel or Netanyahu for that fact. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1844 "2024-09-30T16:40:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And _my_ point is that moderate Pro Palestinian voices can be found in Israel, even in positions of power. That’s because contrary to your claim Israel does not actually suppress these voices. They cannot be found in the leadership of the Palestinian territories. It’s ridiculous to blame Israel or Netanyahu for that fact. So this is the disagreement, then. I think it is largely the fault of the Israeli right. I think the evidence shows they did deliberately assist Hamas, and weaken more moderate rivals, and that made a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1845 "2024-09-30T16:41:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For one, you claimed that “Israel has no choice but to expand” Yes, it is my opinion that in order to survive Israel must expand. It has population, intellect and a solid economy but it lacks resources. Israel is not the result of natural political evolution like France, China or the Arab states. Israel exists by UN fiat. Israel has so far appropriated the resources needed for survival, but now it needs Gaza and the west bank. Of course this is my observation, but it agrees with the current policies of Israel and the US. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1846 "2024-09-30T16:57:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If the Palestinians agree to a two state solution without a poison pill, they could end the occupation within a year. Although I think you’re sincere in that I do not have confidence that a sufficient number of the people running Israel would be willing to accept such a deal. I would be happy to be proved wrong with an actual two-state solution supported by all involved parties be created and maintained, but I am not holding my breath. > [@Babale](#): > > More mistakes than any army engaging in an operation of this scale would have made? I highly fucking doubt it. That is a question that can certainly be debated. Part of the issue is that in today’s world there is so very much documentation in real-time of what such a military operation is like, as opposed to, say, WWII when people weren’t getting real-time video of what living through a bombing is like and propaganda didn’t involve video fakery. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1847 "2024-09-30T16:58:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What motivation do you have to agree to this, when if you just keep doing what you’re doing, eventually - if international voices are to be believed - the world will come swooping in to save you and give you all of Palestine, from the river to the sea? I don’t see this scenario playing a significant role in the motivation of the Paliestinians. I have never heard any rhetoric about how those plucky protestors on College campuses will soon bring Israel to its knees and liberate us. What I mainly see is a group of people who feel they have no hope and certainly no trust as a in the state that has its boot on their neck as a negotiating partner. So with nothing left to lose they put their effort on fighting back against that boot. No it probably won’t make a difference but at least it gives you purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1848 "2024-09-30T17:00:46Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Yes, it is my opinion that in order to survive Israel must expand. It has population, intellect and a solid economy but it lacks resources. And that’s where I asked for a cite that shows that Israel must expand. Must Singapore expand? > [@Crane](#): > > Israel is not the result of natural political evolution like France, China or the Arab states. Israel exists by UN fiat. Only if you believe that the Jew is somehow fundamentally different from the Frenchman or the Chinese person or the Arab and therefore doesn’t deserve a homeland. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1849 "2024-09-30T17:05:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the Frenchman or the Chinese person or the Arab 🎶 _One of these things is not like the others,_ _One of these things just doesn’t belong,_ _Can you tell which thing is not like the others,_ _By the time I finish my post?_ 🎶 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1850 "2024-09-30T17:07:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > 🎶 _One of these things is not like the others,_ > _One of these things just doesn’t belong,_ > _Can you tell which thing is not like the others,_ > _By the time I finish my post?_ 🎶. I like how you snipped out “Jew” in order to once again try and insinuate shit. Do you ever make regular posts, or just one liners that insinuate shit? Why are you such a dishonest fuckwad? Who hurt you? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1851 "2024-09-30T17:12:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I like how you snipped out “Jew” in order to once again try and insinuate shit. I didn’t need to insinuate anything to tweak you for splitting Europeans and Asians into nationalities while lumping all Middle Easterners into “Arabs”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1852 "2024-09-30T17:15:29Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I didn’t need to insinuate anything to tweak you for splitting Europeans and Asians into nationalities while lumping all Middle Easterners into “Arabs” Cool story bro. By the way, I’m still waiting: > [@Babale](#): > > I’m not asking a _question_; I am asking you to admit that it is true that Israel is not responsible to the English world choosing to use the term “Settlement”, since even after I made the post you quoted, you continued to insinuate that no, Israel IS responsible for this, by weaponizing accusations of antisemitism: ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1853 "2024-09-30T17:26:12Z")
🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1854 "2024-09-30T17:31:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And that’s where I asked for a cite that shows that Israel must expand. > > Must Singapore expand? Singapore is not militant. Their approach to nation building is different. Jews are well assimilated into US society. In California Jews were less discriminated against (if at all) than Okies or blacks. I know because I am a second generation Okie. It is Israel that categorizes Jews as uniquely in need of an ethnocracy to support their life styles. And, modern Israel is an experiment in nation building. Much like the nation building after WW1. Many of those have failed. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1855 "2024-09-30T17:32:16Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > And that’s where I asked for a cite that shows that Israel must expand. > > > > Must Singapore expand? > > Singapore is not militant. Their approach to nation building is different. Sorry, where is the cite that shows that Israel must expand? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1856 "2024-09-30T17:34:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sorry, where is the cite that shows that Israel must expand? I have clearly stated that it is my observation of current events. Where’s your problem? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1857 "2024-09-30T17:35:59Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Sorry, where is the cite that shows that Israel must expand? > > I have clearly stated that it is my observation of current events. Ok, great, then I will grant your geopolitical opinion with all the consideration it deserves. ![](https://media3.giphy.com/media/n9ewEcw0oyHEYEuH1c/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952u4jgzl4a9e46ts439xlpqr6jv3m8vm5nmbhhrl1x&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1858 "2024-09-30T17:38:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ok, great, then I will grant your geopolitical opinion with all the consideration it deserves. As you may. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1859 "2024-09-30T20:09:31Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel has so far appropriated the resources needed for survival, but now it needs Gaza and the west bank. What “resources”, pray tell, does Gaza have that Israel simply cannot survive without? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1860 "2024-09-30T20:28:17Z")
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