# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 99
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1961 "2024-10-24T04:03:37Z")
Nuh-uh. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1962 "2024-10-24T04:06:14Z")
Yeah-huh. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1963 "2024-10-24T05:52:04Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > A two state solution for kurdistan where, exactly? In ancestral Kurdish land, illegally occupied by Settler Colonialists and sometimes referred to as “Turkey” or “Türkiye”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1964 "2024-10-24T06:36:38Z")
Do you Zionist chucklefucks think people who are for a free Palestine _aren’t_ also for a free Kurdistan? Or are fans of the Turkish government? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1965 "2024-10-24T07:48:35Z")
Then good for you for recognizing the great diversity in opinions among Zionists. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1966 "2024-10-24T10:17:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you Zionist chucklefucks think people who are for a free Palestine _aren’t_ also for a free Kurdistan? No one shouting about Kurdistan is blocking my daughter from getting to class in Montreal. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1967 "2024-10-24T11:12:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel has again and again offered to withdraw from both the West Bank and Gaza and to recognize a Palestinian state Oh come now. Not even you believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1968 "2024-10-24T12:12:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not all of us were as privileged as your family, to make it into the States despite Jew quotas. I am very much aware of that, as the majority of my paternal grandparents’ families _did not_ make it to the US and died horribly. Only a fraction of those two families were “privileged”, the rest reached didn’t reach Israel, either, and found no safe haven anywhere. > [@Babale](#): > > Mhmm, two ministers, representing two parties, that won’t meet the minimum requirements to get into Parliament at the next election. > > Meanwhile in the US you have equally influential politicians who are members of one of the two parties in your system who think Jews have space lasers. Yes, there are problems on both sides with lunatics and fanatics. And all of the above are actually in the US and Israel governments right now. I don’t think we should be complacent or dismiss the risks with saying they “just” this or that. In 2015 Donald Trump was a buffoon on reality TV. In 2016 he was president of the US. In 2024 he is trying again and openly stating what sort of dictator he aspires to be, and has a game plan to achieve it. Any one of these lunatics could rise to power give the right circumstances. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Why the hell should I have to suffer because of a war on the other side of the planet over land my family hasn’t touched in 1800 years and frankly has no interest in? > > Oh, I’m sure if you make sure they know how anti-Zionist you are, they’ll know you’re one of the good Jews. After all, they’re not antisemitic, right? Just anti Zionist? You know that’s nonsense - to that sort I will be forever a Jew. That’s the special hell of being of questionable Jewishness - there are plenty of Jews who will happily abandon you, and the enemies of Jews will still oppress and kill you. And let me be clear - I am not anti-Zionist as a concept. I am anti the current government of Israel, and not at all happy about how modern Israel came to be, although I hold no illusions about how _most_ nations come to exist. Israel should not be held to a double standard, even though it is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1969 "2024-10-24T12:12:51Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > No one shouting about Kurdistan is blocking my daughter from getting to class in Montreal. Not a lot of authoritarian pushback on protesting Turkey, either, I imagine… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1970 "2024-10-24T12:14:58Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > > > Israelis. > > > > I know more American Christians (mostly cultural Christians but some practicing) who call Palestinians animals or vermin than Jews of any nationality, but sure, that’s a flaw with Jewish culture. Whatever. > > Yeah I think it’s an American thing in general rather than just an American Jewish thing. I mean I’d want the group I’m in to be better than that but “Americans” is also a group I’m in. The racism against Arabs is more or less a tie for first in America. Nope I was specifically referring to people _born and raised_ in Israel who were visiting the US (and in once case married an American) and the way some of them referred to Palestinians. It was both loathsome to see such hatred and a little scary. They were completely irrational on the subject, even more so than the standard bigot I’ve encountered. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1971 "2024-10-24T12:17:12Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Fast forward to now and his mother tells me that the NG has come back and told him that since the vax is no longer a requirement, he now needs to finish his contract. He’s now in Texas for training, will be leaving for Kuwait and then to Israel, not to return until next fucking August! What the everloving fuck? And why is the NG doing the Army’s job? Yeah, when you sign on the line for the military it gives a whole new meaning to the term “obligation”. And the NG has “been doing the army’s job” for decades now. Sorry to hear what your grandson is going through. I hope he stays safe and returns whole and healthy. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1972 "2024-10-24T12:21:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not a lot of authoritarian pushback on protesting Turkey, either, I imagine… Also not a ton of money pouring in from the Kurds or Turkey to fund the protests on either side. Keep propping up Iran, you are doing a great job. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1973 "2024-10-24T12:28:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Lamoral](#): > > > > People believed that they - in perpetuity - were guilty of having _killed Jesus Christ._ > > Which never made sense to me, since it’s pretty much one of the most basic principles of Christianity that Jesus getting killed was a good thing. Religion is not rational. > [@Babale](#): > > The _fact_ of the matter is that Israel has again and again offered to withdraw from both the West Bank and Gaza and to recognize a Palestinian state; and Israel has had this offer rejected, again and again, by people who absolutely refuse the very concept of a Jewish state in that land. > > If I snapped my fingers and every settler was gone from the West Bank, do you _really_ think we’d have peace? That Hamas would lose popularity and the PA would suddenly grow a pair of balls and do what Palestinians actually need to get a state of their own? I think that if Israel _actually did_ withdraw from the West Bank, including pulling out all the settlers there illegally they’d still have the problem of dangerous, violent, terrorist organizations but they might also have better PR with the rest of the world. Right now Israel is perceived to be part of the problem, and the settlers blatantly ignoring the law and their government allowing or even enabling that feeds into the perception that Israel doesn’t want to solve the problem, it just wants to take land and shove the rightful owners off it. You wouldn’t have peace, but Israel might have more allies, or at least less opposition on the world stage. Does that matter to the Israelis? I don’t know. Would it make any significant difference? I don’t know that, either. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Until Israelis and their allies see the settlers and their enablers as much enemies of peace as Hamas and Hezbollah, there’s no chance of long-term peace and security. Getting rid of one probably wouldn’t get rid of the other necessarily. But there’s no chance of peace as long as both have so much support from wealthy and powerful parties (i.e. the Israeli government, the Iranian government, etc.). ^ This. > [@Smapti](#): > > Calling Israel an “oppressive ethnocratic state” IS an extremist position. At this point in time that is true. However, there are people in Israel, including in its government, who would very much like to turn Israel into such a thing just as in the US we have Christian nationalists who would like a totalitarian “Christian” state here. That said - one should not conflate an entire government with those who are (currently, and hopefully forever) fringe extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1974 "2024-10-24T12:32:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, when you sign on the line for the military it gives a whole new meaning to the term “obligation”. Oh, I know. I served a career’s worth. But this is only a hundred people that are being sent, so this seems like he’s being singled out for punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1975 "2024-10-24T12:37:09Z")
Not sure he himself is of such important as to be noted by decision-makers and thus singled out. Seems to me more likely to just be a bad roll of the dice. But I freely confess I know even less about this than you do so I could be entirely wrong on that point. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1976 "2024-10-24T13:09:57Z")
Your mindless idiocy is excused. Which among the great diversity of Zionist thought does not involve the denial of the rights of the Palestinians or any other goyim? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1977 "2024-10-24T13:21:06Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > Which among the great diversity of Zionist thought does not involve the denial of the rights of the Palestinians or any other goyim? Probably the Zionists like me, who support a two-state solution that guarantees full human rights for all residents of the region, which could look like an EU style of government in which residents can live and work in either country as they choose but will remain voting citizens of only one (Palestine or Israel); maybe there are other ways to accomplish this as well. Obviously this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming right now, but at least it acknowledges that neither of these peoples are going to cease to exist, and a solution must eventually be found that recognizes the rights of everyone. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1978 "2024-10-24T13:36:40Z")
A two state solution would violate the rights of the Palestinians in that it would deny their right of return as guaranteed through various international declarations. conventions, and resolutions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1979 "2024-10-24T13:37:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you Zionist chucklefucks think people who are for a free Palestine _aren’t_ also for a free Kurdistan? I doubt it, because I never see boycotts of Turkey or college protests screaming that Erdogan drinks the blood of children. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1980 "2024-10-24T13:38:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I doubt it, because I never see boycotts of Turkey or college protests screaming that Erdogan drinks the blood of children. There may have been a bunch of Vegans protesting Canadian Thanksgiving a few weeks ago… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=98) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=100)