# Discussion of Ali being racist \[mod title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549 "2016-06-04T19:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/21 "2016-06-05T05:10:50Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > The latitude allotted to Ali’s racism is quite remarkable. > > We are set to be ambushed with loads of BS regarding what a great person Ali was. I beg those of you who subscribe to such ignorance to look into how Ali treated Joe Frazier. Look into what he called George Foreman. Look into his views on interracial marriage and Jewish people. > > Was Ali a great fighter? One of the best! Was Ali entertaining? He changed the way athletes marketed themselves. But a good person, he was not. Now that we are in the pit… Like I said, I looked at all that and it is clear that you are falling for the time line blindness syndrome [sup]TM[/sup] seen coming from many sources of information on the right. AFAIK with his later repudiation of Farrakhan and later changes of opinion (later Ali got closer to Foreman) most of what you are going about [ignore his changes and evolution](http://jewishcurrents.org/april-28-muhammad-alis-grandson-36389). Using a bit of logic one can say then how dumb Giraffes Can’s Dance claim is. Ali was taken to task for his slurs, Foreman and the daughter of Ali (that married a Jew) must had been at the forefront to make his mind change, so you only showed weapon’s grade ignorance by ignoring how the man changed and that people took him to task. So he said bad things in the past, but he changed a lot for the better, and indeed he became more of the good person that many do admire now. > **['The Greatest,' in and out of the ring](https://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/ali/news/story?id=3171301)** > > The world inside the ring just wasn't big enough to contain the irrepressible Muhammad Ali on his way to becoming the best-known athlete in the world, William Nack writes. As Bill Nack of ESPN puts it: > [@](#): > > I could see him clomping through Chickasaw Park in Louisville in those steel-toed Brogans. I could imagine him walking around the Olympic Village in Rome and showing his gold medal to everyone. I could remember him dancing like a madman around the ring in Miami after beating Liston and telling the astonished world that he was “the baddest man” on the planet. > > I could hear him saying that he had no quarrel with those Viet Cong. I could recall him leaning back against Foreman in Zaire as Dundee screamed at him, “Get off the ropes!” I could remember him sprawling on his back, tassels flying in the air, after Frazier dropped him with the mightiest of left hooks at Madison Square Garden in '71. > > I could see him sitting in his locker room, looking puffy and drained and beaten after he lost the title to Spinks, with his entourage and handlers, afraid for their jobs, screaming at him that he had let them down because he had not trained. > > I could remember him waving at the honking horns with one hand, blowing kisses left and right, while trying to untangle the cables with the other. > > And I still recall Ali today, dressed in radiant white, as he bore the Olympic torch that touched the hearts and lit the conscience of a nation still shadowed by its turbulent past. > > Today came the journey’s end, with one thing made clear: There is no chance we’ll ever see his like again. ---
**Author:** ![cherry\_pez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8491ac/32.png) [@cherry\_pez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cherry_pez)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/22 "2016-06-05T05:23:36Z")
Yeah, the racism stuff is misguided but, now that we’re in the Pit(somewhere I try to avoid), Ali is a grade-a asshole for what he did to Frazier. Calling a sharecropper’s son from South-fucking-Carolina an Uncle Tom requires a severe case of douchebaggery. And Ali’s poison turned Frazier into a bitter old man gloating over Ali’s Parkinson’s. I know they changed boxing forever but sometimes I wish they’d never met. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/23 "2016-06-05T05:44:46Z")
I never was a big fan of Ali’s because I think his treatment of Joe Frazier was the lowest form of black on black racism: a black man mocking another black man for looking too black as well as calling him and Uncle Tom, and he came across as a big mouth jerk to me. I’m glad to hear that he repudiated some of these views later in life, of course conveniently after his boxing career was long over. For those interested in taking another point of view of Ali’s career, I highly recommend the book “The Ghosts of Manila” > **[Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier:...](https://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Manila-Fateful-Between-Muhammad/dp/0060954809)** > > Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier \[Kram, Mark\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier . . Which is a bit overboard in its attempts to demystify the Ali myth but interesting nevertheless. In the book the author —questions whether Ali really did throw his Olympic medal into the Ohio River —sheds light on his educational performance, questioning whether he was as Howard Cosell called him, a “poet” or just a big mouthed dullard —despite his bravado was scared shitless before and during his fight with Sonny Liston —theorizes his refusal to fight in Viet Nam was really not a stand against the war, but fear that the Nation of Islam might kill him after recruiting him as a “useful idiot” —claims later foil Joe Frazier lent Ali money in the late 60s when he was completely down and out —questions whether he really had Parkinson’s disease, or was it rather Smokin Joe just rendered him punch drunk Before anyone gets hot on me, I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the book, but is an interesting point of view on the Ali Legacy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/24 "2016-06-05T06:04:54Z")
Actually, wasn’t his Parkinson’s thought to be the result of hits to the head? And even if he did insult Frazier, was he sincere, or was it just trash talk? And so what if he was scared shitless? He still went in and fought, did he? He didn’t let anyone see his fear – why is that bad? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/25 "2016-06-05T06:36:04Z")
I saw a film clip last night in which he called Ernie Shavers an Uncle Tom too. Ali did this sort of thing in order to put his opponents on the defensive, make them feel bad about themselves and most of all to make them mad. He did a lot of things intended to make his opponents furious, knowing that an angry man is easier to beat. For this reason many of his opponents were already beaten before they ever stepped into the ring. He also did it for publicity and to drum up interest in his fights, with some seeing him as a hero and some wanting to see him get his head knocked off. It made no matter to him whether people hated him or rooted for him, as long as they tuned in or bought tickets to see his fights. Ali definitely was what many would call racist, but I would call him more of a separatist. To many this is the same thing, but his disapproval of racial intermingling seemed to me to be more a result of his pride in being black and not wanting to see America’s black population become diluted. To me this is different from the point of view of a racist, in which racial intermingling is disapproved of because the racist thinks other races are inferior. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/26 "2016-06-05T06:37:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, wasn’t his Parkinson’s thought to be the result of hits to the head? And even if he did insult Frazier, was he sincere, or was it just trash talk? > > And so what if he was scared shitless? He still went in and fought, did he? He didn’t let anyone see his fear – why is that bad? Jes tellin ya what the book said. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/27 "2016-06-05T06:49:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I saw a film clip last night in which he called Ernie Shavers an Uncle Tom too. Ali did this sort of thing in order to put his opponents on the defensive, make them feel bad about themselves and most of all to make them mad. He did a lot of things intended to make his opponents furious, knowing that an angry man is easier to beat. For this reason many of his opponents were already beaten before they ever stepped into the ring. > > He also did it for publicity and to drum up interest in his fights, with some seeing him as a hero and some wanting to see him get his head knocked off. It made no matter to him whether people hated him or rooted for him, as long as they tuned in or bought tickets to see his fights. > > Ali definitely was what many would call racist, but I would call him more of a separatist. To many this is the same thing, but his disapproval of racial intermingling seemed to me to be more a result of his pride in being black and not wanting to see America’s black population become diluted. To me this is different from the point of view of a racist, in which racial intermingling is disapproved of because the racist thinks other races are inferior. Your dictionary definition is correct. However what other reason would someone wish for racial seperation than to prevent another race from mixing their DNA with their race? And why? Because in their minds it would pollute their races gene pool because they feel their race is superior to the other. Thus it’s awfully hard to make a case for seperation of races without really being a racist. Semantics aside, whatever you want to call it I find Ali’s views on the subject at the time appalling, ignorant, and unhelpful. As well as his Uncle Tom remarks. Not things that should come out of the mouth of one so canonized. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/28 "2016-06-05T07:27:22Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > It’s a well-known fact. First of all, IQ tests are subjective at best. I will concede that he DID score a 78 on an IQ test, however. And that test was given by the US military. It seems reasonable to assume that someone who didn’t want to go to war _might_ be tempted to try to get out of it. Ted Nugent has his urban legend about crapping himself, etc. Why couldn’t Ali have played dumb to not meet the minimum IQ standards? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/29 "2016-06-05T07:38:29Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Your dictionary definition is correct. However what other reason would someone wish for racial seperation than to prevent another race from mixing their DNA with their race? And why? Because in their minds it would pollute their races gene pool because they feel their race is superior to the other. I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. To me, one can have pride in one’s own gene pool and be desirous of not wanting it diluted simply out of pride in one’s own race. This doesn’t mean they necessarily have to think other races are inferior, just different. It’s similar to the way people root for their home sports teams, win or lose. They maintain pride in the team they identify with, even though the scoreboard may show a final score indicating their own team is ‘inferior’. In other words, pride in one’s race, team, family or whatever can very easily exist on a level quite apart from questions of superiority or inferiority. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/30 "2016-06-05T07:49:04Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > First of all, IQ tests are subjective at best. I will concede that he DID score a 78 on an IQ test, however. And that test was given by the US military. It seems reasonable to assume that someone who didn’t want to go to war _might_ be tempted to try to get out of it. Ted Nugent has his urban legend about crapping himself, etc. Why couldn’t Ali have played dumb to not meet the minimum IQ standards? Ali was anything but dumb. From an early age he was a master showman, a master promoter, a master boxer, and a master manipulator of the media and his opponents. In my opinion Ali was highly intelligent, and maybe a genius. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/31 "2016-06-05T08:59:06Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > …like most racists, he was of extremely low intellect (78 IQ). This post made me laugh – so much ironic cluelessness in so few words. (Hint: Read [The Mismeasure of Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man). Please.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/32 "2016-06-05T09:06:28Z")
P.S. I have a PhD, and I would kill to have 1% of Ali’s verbal dexterity and in-the-moment mental acuity. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/33 "2016-06-05T10:28:19Z")
Mr. Ali was quite the poet and certainly not stupid. And if he harbored some racism in his youth, who the hell could blame him? He grew up not being allowed to use the same water fountain as white people and that didn’t change even after he won gold for his country. He did a lot of good and inspired millions. May he rest in peace. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/34 "2016-06-05T10:41:25Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > I beg those of you who subscribe to such ignorance to look into how Ali treated Joe Frazier. Look into what he called George Foreman. Look into his views on interracial marriage and Jewish people. You should provide a cite. > [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > The guy literally spoke at a KKK rally expressing his support for their beliefs in segregation. You should provide a cite. > [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Ali never disavowed those beliefs that he very publicly held whilst with the NOI: > > • Anti-interracial couples > • Pro-segregation > • White people were the devils > > In fact, Ali continued expressing support for segregation after he split from the NOI. Ali only left the NOI, according to him, because Elijah Muhammad died. You should provide a cite. > [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > It’s a well-known fact. Ooooh! A possible record - many allegations on the SDMB; no cites, but finishing with a ‘well-known fact’. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/35 "2016-06-05T11:15:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. To me, one can have pride in one’s own gene pool and be desirous of not wanting it diluted simply out of pride in one’s own race. This doesn’t mean they necessarily have to think other races are inferior, just different. It’s similar to the way people root for their home sports teams, win or lose. They maintain pride in the team they identify with, even though the scoreboard may show a final score indicating their own team is ‘inferior’. In other words, pride in one’s race, team, family or whatever can very easily exist on a level quite apart from questions of superiority or inferiority. To not want to mix races means you are discriminating against that other race. That’s racism. Oh, and any team you have “pride” in, you want them to win. You want them to compete against the other team and beat them. Not at all a good metaphor for race issues, where we want people to get along. Wanting “purity of the races” is racist as fuck. It is being against miscegenation, something so dad blasted racist we had to get the government involved to force the issue. It is US vs THEM thinking, the cornerstone of all bigotry. It is tribalism. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/36 "2016-06-05T11:18:41Z")
Look, this was an obvious troll from the start. Can we just ban them and move on? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/37 "2016-06-05T12:48:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ali was anything but dumb. From an early age he was a master showman, a master promoter, a master boxer, and a master manipulator of the media and his opponents. In my opinion Ali was highly intelligent, and maybe a genius. I may not have articulated it well, but I agree with this sentiment. My point was that he may have _played_ dumb when it came to the military’s testing. That’s just me speculating, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/38 "2016-06-05T13:04:12Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Look, this was an obvious troll from the start. Can we just ban them and move on? In the pretensions of the middle america copying of the victorian tea room, the statement of the obvious is consider so rude and impolite, and could cause the women to faint. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/39 "2016-06-05T13:25:43Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Ali never disavowed those beliefs that he very publicly held whilst with the NOI: > > • Anti-interracial couples Funny - his son-in-law, the man who married Ali’s daughter Jamillah, is a white man. See what he has to say about his father-in-law [here](http://wgntv.com/2016/06/04/muhammad-ali-remembered-by-his-son-in-law). And his daughter Khaliah married a Jewish guy and given her son had a bar mitzvah (attended by Muhammad) I’m guessing her kid(s) are practicing that religion. There is no indication Ali ever rejected his daughters who had inter-racial marriages. You know what? Anyone can _say_ they’ve “disavowed” a belief, but I prefer people who walk the walk. What Ali thought as a 20 or 25 year old clearly was not what he practiced as an older man and father. > [@](#): > > • White people were the devils That’s straight from the NoI playbook, and Ali certainly didn’t _act_ like he believed that. Again, people can and do change over time. I also think people are too ready to dismiss the context in which Ali grew up. He grew up in a world where he wasn’t allowed to use the same bathroom, drinking fountain, restaurants, hotels, and other businesses as white people. Expecting that not to affect him is, to be blunt, stupid. Clearly, though, his travels throughout the world and his later life changed his views on these things _based on his actions_ which really do speak louder than words. Even words from a loud, proud man like Ali. > [@](#): > > He was a cold racist; and like most racists, he was of extremely low intellect (78 IQ). Ha-ha-ha - based on a military IQ test was that is known to have put minorities at a disadvantage, taken by a man who was more than a little eager to avoid military service during Viet Nam. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > I never was a big fan of Ali’s because I think his treatment of Joe Frazier was the lowest form of black on black racism: a black man mocking another black man for looking too black as well as calling him and Uncle Tom, and he came across as a big mouth jerk to me. I’m glad to hear that he repudiated some of these views later in life, of course conveniently after his boxing career was long over. Some of the insulting during his boxing years was trash talk, some of it probably represented his beliefs _at the time_ but as noted his beliefs did not remain static over time. > [@](#): > > —questions whether Ali really did throw his Olympic medal into the Ohio River Yes, he actually did throw his Olympic medal into the Ohio River. [Said medal was found by someone on a river cleaning crew in 2014](http://empirenews.net/muhammad-alis-olympic-gold-medal-found-in-ohio-river/) > [@](#): > > —sheds light on his educational performance, questioning whether he was as Howard Cosell called him, a “poet” or just a big mouthed dullard Whether he was a poet in the traditional sense or not, he did have a way with words and a certain wit. > [@](#): > > —despite his bravado was scared shitless before and during his fight with Sonny Liston Bravery isn’t being fearless, it’s not letting your fear stop you. > [@](#): > > —theorizes his refusal to fight in Viet Nam was really not a stand against the war, but fear that the Nation of Islam might kill him after recruiting him as a “useful idiot” Right… Og forbid anyone actually act on their stated convictions. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > —questions whether he really had Parkinson’s disease, or was it rather Smokin Joe just rendered him punch drunk > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, wasn’t his Parkinson’s thought to be the result of hits to the head? Parkinson’s certainly can be caused by brain damage, and we now know that repeated blows to the head/concussions can cause brain damage. Actually, it’s been known for a long time that boxing can cause brain damage. “Punch drunk” is a derogatory and inaccurate term for that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/40 "2016-06-05T13:30:47Z")
“A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted thirty years of his life.” Quoted from some horrible racist, apparently? > [@BigT](#): > > To not want to mix races means you are discriminating against that other race. That’s racism. Agreed. That is racism, and I would be sad if that was indeed a belief that Ali still held later in his life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=3)