# Discussion of Ali being racist \[mod title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549 "2016-06-04T19:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/61 "2016-06-05T17:30:55Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > When you’re on the ropes, call the other guy a racist, right? Nope. I rope a dope. Like this: > [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Fine, I’m a troll. You are an admitted troll. As such, you have violated the rules of this message board. Go back under your bridge. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/62 "2016-06-05T17:55:03Z")
I’ve admired Ali since I was a kid, so it was unpleasant to learn about the negative things he did. The racist/separatist comments do indeed have to be taken in context. The separatist impulse was rooted in a sensible conclusion that whites in the Jim Crow south were always going to be too racist to accept blacks to participate fully in society. Black separatists like Marcus Garvey, the NOI, et al, were of the opinion that it was better to fully participate in their own society than be second-class citizens. Ali scoring 78 on the Army’s IQ tests is more of an indictment of the test than Ali’s intelligence. It may also be an indictment of the spotty education often given to second-class citizens. Ali did a great deal of self-education in his adulthood, to prepare him for his career as a speaker during the years he wasn’t allow to box professionally. Whatever that test measured, it wasn’t innate intelligence. The fact that Ali renounced his racist/separatist opinions makes them less troubling to me than his treatment of Joe Frazier. An icon of Ali’s stature should have apologized to Frazier, publicly and effusively. At least Ali’s detractors seem to have dropped the ridiculous assertion that he resisted the draft because he was a coward. As heavyweight champion, Ali would have certainly been given a morale/PR function in the Army, similar to what Joe Louis had. It would have been idiotic to put the heavyweight champ on the front lines. Imagine the morale boost for the Viet Cong if they killed the toughest American. I always loved Harlan Ellison’s response to people who were clinging to the claim that Ali was a coward: “Tell that to George Foreman”. I’ve always believed in acknowledging ‘the whole truth’ about people who accomplish great things. It may be useful to compare Ali with Charles Lindbergh, another person I’ve always admired. Like Ali, he had unquestionably great achievements as a young adult, which became tainted by ugly events later. (In the runup to WW2, Lindbergh revealed a nasty anti-Semitism, if not a downright fascist streak. Long after his death, it was learned that he had two additional families in Europe which he’d kept secret). Ali wasn’t perfect. But for all his misdeeds, he showed a willingness to acknowledge them, and progressed in a positive direction over the course of life. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/63 "2016-06-05T18:06:25Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Ali scoring 78 on the Army’s IQ tests is more of an indictment of the test than Ali’s intelligence. It may also be an indictment of the spotty education often given to second-class citizens. Ali did a great deal of self-education in his adulthood, to prepare him for his career as a speaker during the years he wasn’t allow to box professionally. Whatever that test measured, it wasn’t innate intelligence. IMHO there is a better explanation for that score, if suddenly the government tells you to fight in what you know it is a very unjust war and you are presented with a test to see where they are going to put you in that war, the most likely result is that you will not take the test seriously at all. Add to that the fact that many like Ali would be aware that he would likely not not be put in dangerous situations and then even less importance given to the test is likely to follow. Personally, if put in that situation, I would not give a shit for a test under those conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/64 "2016-06-05T18:11:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Look, this was an obvious troll from the start. Can we just ban them and move on? Agreed. From the username alone, it should have been obvious that this guy is seriously divorced from reality. It may be a horrifying spectacle, but I can totally dance. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/65 "2016-06-05T18:13:42Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > You’ve got 2 things working against you. 1. You refuse to worship at the feet of Muhammad Ali 2. It is a common tactic to accuse a poster of being a troll if you don’t like their opinion. > > Plus, if your not one of the “Board Favorites” then there’s a third strike against you. A fourth strike is being a fucking idiot. A fifth strike is not knowing the difference between _your_ and _you’re_. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/66 "2016-06-05T18:16:58Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Agreed. From the username alone, it should have been obvious that this guy is seriously divorced from reality. It may be a horrifying spectacle, but I can totally dance. Yay! it is the real **Giraffe** 🙂 ♪ _‘Cause I’m The Giraffe, yes I’m the real raff’ All you other Giraffe’s are just imitating So won’t the real Giraffe please stand up, Please stand up, please stand up?_ ♫ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/67 "2016-06-05T18:26:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Oh, but just to set the record more straight one has to point out that a poster linked to news that the medal of Ali was found in the river, not so, the origin of that is from a parody site. AFAIK the biographer of Ali did report a long time ago that Ali fessed up and just lost the medal in Florida. IIRC Ali eventually got a replacement medal from the Olympic committee. Oh, _poo_ - I thought that was a legit story. I hate it when that happens. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/68 "2016-06-05T18:40:48Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Having been on this site for a little while, I now understand how it works: > > If you wish to deny a factual statement or event that discredits your side of the debate, deny, deny, deny and use the “cite” or “link it” card. > > It’s part lazy, part denial. If you take a minute to google anything that I’ve stated about Ali, corroborating evidence will immediately pop up. Don’t be so lazy. > > Ali’s low-intellect and 78 IQ is widely known. In fact, and I’m paraphrasing here, Ali has a famous quote when discussion his IQ score (which he took with the Army): “I said I was the greatest of all-time, not the smartest.” And if you ever heard him speak, his lack of intelligence could be found in most statements, as is the case with most racists. > > Also, look up Ali’s appearance with the KKK. It’s quite remarkable. > > Mike Tyson held racist beliefs too. But upon “growing up” he disavowed them. Ali never did any such thing. He held such beliefs in his 30s, so unless disavowed, it’s safe to assume the he still holds them. A racist has never been given such benefit of doubt! > > Another one of Ali’s more famous exploits: he tried to get white boxers to publicly use the N-word in reference to him. When one refused, he simply lied and said he called him the N-word anyway. > > I dare the deniers to do some research on these well-known facts. If they’re not true, you can discredit me, right? I dare ya! If it only “takes a minute to google”, then fucking do it yourself. If you can’t bother doing that, why should we? How does that make us any lazier than you? Is this what you did in school when your teacher asked you how you came up with the anwer? “PROVE ME WRONG TEACHER!!! IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES TO LOOK IT UP!!! DON’T BE SO LAZY!!!” I don’t know if you’re a racist or a troll, nor do I really give a shit. You are, however, a fucking retard who can’t be bothered to do your own homework and want other people to do it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/69 "2016-06-05T18:46:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > To not want to mix races means you are discriminating against that other race. That’s racism. > > Oh, and any team you have “pride” in, you want them to win. You want them to compete against the other team and beat them. > > Not at all a good metaphor for race issues, where we want people to get along. > > Wanting “purity of the races” is racist as fuck. It is being against miscegenation, something so dad blasted racist we had to get the government involved to force the issue. > > It is US vs THEM thinking, the cornerstone of all bigotry. It is tribalism. How come when Hispanics or Native Americans are proud of their heritage it’s admirable, but when Ali expresses pride in his heritage he’s racist? And for that matter, is not all pride in one’s heritage racist? I mean, it necessarily evinces a belief that everyone else’s heritage is inferior, right? And it demonstrates us vs. them thinking, right? So let’s not be hearing any more from the left about how members of this race or that race should take pride in their heritage, because also according to the left this makes them racist assholes. Right? ---
**Author:** ![cherry\_pez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8491ac/32.png) [@cherry\_pez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cherry_pez)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/70 "2016-06-05T19:06:10Z")
GCD, why are you so indignant about people supposedly ignoring one decade of Ali’s life when you are most definitely ignoring four? Being a contrarian is fun/useful especially when everyone else is involved in hagiography but you’re doing the same thing you accuse others of doing… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/71 "2016-06-05T20:07:18Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > You’ve got 2 things working against you. 1. You refuse to worship at the feet of Muhammad Ali 2. It is a common tactic to accuse a poster of being a troll if you don’t like their opinion. > > Plus, if your not one of the “Board Favorites” then there’s a third strike against you. Can you ever _not_ lie? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/72 "2016-06-05T22:01:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, he actually did throw his Olympic medal into the Ohio River. [Said medal was found by someone on a river cleaning crew in 2014](http://empirenews.net/muhammad-alis-olympic-gold-medal-found-in-ohio-river/) I have no horse in this race except to say that your cite is a satire news site. Their front page is currently heralding the arrival of Ronnie Wood’s conjoined twins and discussing the texting lane being designated on Miami highways. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/73 "2016-06-05T22:11:11Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I have no horse in this race except to say that your cite is a satire news site. Their front page is currently heralding the arrival of Ronnie Wood’s conjoined twins and discussing the texting lane being designated on Miami highways. And, that’s why you read to the end of the thread before responding. Sorry, this was already pointed out! ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/74 "2016-06-05T22:23:23Z")
**Girrafes Can’t dance** , around here we’ve observed that ‘prove me wrong’ leaves people a lot of wiggle room to reject evidence they don’t like, so our standard is you must defend your own statements. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to agree with it, but if you want to be taken seriously around here, you have to deal with it. And I, for one, am shocked, shocked to discover that Ali was closer to being a perfect athlete that he was a perfect human being! ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/75 "2016-06-05T22:31:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. To me, one can have pride in one’s own gene pool and be desirous of not wanting it diluted simply out of pride in one’s own race. This doesn’t mean they necessarily have to think other races are inferior, just different. It’s similar to the way people root for their home sports teams, win or lose. They maintain pride in the team they identify with, even though the scoreboard may show a final score indicating their own team is ‘inferior’. In other words, pride in one’s race, team, family or whatever can very easily exist on a level quite apart from questions of superiority or inferiority. I think racial separation is a dangerous thinking. Also, “separate but equal” even moreso, because as we have seen by history, its never equal. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/76 "2016-06-05T22:40:57Z")
[quote=“Broomstick, post:39, topic:756549”] > [@](#): > > That’s straight from the NoI playbook, and Ali certainly didn’t _act_ like he believed that. Again, people can and do change over time. > > I also think people are too ready to dismiss the context in which Ali grew up. He grew up in a world where he wasn’t allowed to use the same bathroom, drinking fountain, restaurants, hotels, and other businesses as white people. Expecting that not to affect him is, to be blunt, stupid. Clearly, though, his travels throughout the world and his later life changed his views on these things _based on his actions_ which really do speak louder than words. Even words from a loud, proud man like Ali. I’m willing to give Ali credit for that, at the same time, I give more credit to what someone does and says when they are at their prime, not when they are a broken down sympathetic old man. > [@](#): > > Ha-ha-ha - based on a military IQ test was that is known to have put minorities at a disadvantage, taken by a man who was more than a little eager to avoid military service during Viet Nam. So says you, so says you. > [@](#): > > Some of the insulting during his boxing years was trash talk, some of it probably represented his beliefs _at the time_ but as noted his beliefs did not remain static over time. I think this is the second time I’ve hear the calling Joe Frazier a “gorilla” was just “trash talk” response and its not a great excuse. > [@](#): > > Yes, he actually did throw his Olympic medal into the Ohio River. [Said medal was found by someone on a river cleaning crew in 2014](http://empirenews.net/muhammad-alis-olympic-gold-medal-found-in-ohio-river/) Just because they found it there doesn’t mean Clay threw it in the river. > [@](#): > > Whether he was a poet in the traditional sense or not, he did have a way with words and a certain wit. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Bravery isn’t being fearless, it’s not letting your fear stop you. True. The author was pointing out what a lot of people didn’t know because he appeared to be fearless. > [@](#): > > Right… Og forbid anyone actually act on their stated convictions. :roll eyes: One key part of Ali’s legacy is he was brave to stand up to US government and not serve in Vietnam because of his religious and political convictions. If he refused to go just because he was afraid he was going to murdered, kinda shoots a hole in the story. Ill be fair this is one of the accusations the author makes I have a problem with—if Ali is all the way in Vietnam, on an army base, how is the Nation of Islam going to get to him? > [@](#): > > Parkinson’s certainly can be caused by brain damage, and we now know that repeated blows to the head/concussions can cause brain damage. Actually, it’s been known for a long time that boxing can cause brain damage. “Punch drunk” is a derogatory and inaccurate term for that sort of thing. That’s fine as long as we agree then to stop using that phrase for any boxer, not just Ali. I’ve noticed over the years its OK to call other boxers punch drunk, but Ali has “Parkinson’s”. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/77 "2016-06-05T22:44:02Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Can you ever _not_ lie? What am I lying about now??? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/78 "2016-06-05T22:53:00Z")
How about you just not suck? ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/79 "2016-06-05T23:03:55Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How about you just not suck? I believe I was talking to Arcus, Sweetie. So why don’t you keep your mouth shut and make me some waffles? ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/80 "2016-06-05T23:09:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Check the link on post #21, it demonstrated that Ali did the walk and accepted his descendants that were the result of “miscegenation”. Not quite what I was hoping for, but it certainly indicates a change in attitude. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=5)