# Discussion of Ali being racist \[mod title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549 "2016-06-04T19:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cherry\_pez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8491ac/32.png) [@cherry\_pez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cherry_pez)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/81 "2016-06-05T23:09:22Z")
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the term “punch drunk”. I’d say that about Frazier or Hearns or Holyfield or Holmes. But I think it’s inaccurate for someone like Ali or Jerry Quarry. What they had went way beyond an impairment. But, I don’t know, maybe it is insensitive now that we know so much more about brain trauma in sports. Always seemed like shorthand with no connotations. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/82 "2016-06-05T23:17:29Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I believe I was talking to Arcus, Sweetie. So why don’t you keep your mouth shut and make me some waffles? Asshole ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/83 "2016-06-05T23:18:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Come on guys, prove me wrong!! Well, I’ve got some long-held beliefs that I might just toss out there, and then dare everyone to discredit me, too. When they don’t bother, then I win\*, right? \*And all will believe that Ali was a closeted British noble, and secretly the next in line to the British throne after Elizabeth: “I say, your majesty, the rabble is getting a bit roused over in the colonies. Bit of a pip if I dress up as one of them and rile them up a bit more, wot?” “Oh, rawthuh, Lord Cassius! I’ll watch that I don’t give up the ghost while you’re slumming in the Americas. I mean, how inconvenient if you have to pop back and do all that Rule Brittania folderol.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/84 "2016-06-05T23:23:54Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > That’s fine as long as we agree then to stop using that phrase for any boxer, not just Ali. I’ve noticed over the years its OK to call other boxers punch drunk, but Ali has “Parkinson’s”. Because he had it, lets drop the ignorance ok? > **[Muhammad Ali’s health battle: What is Parkinson’s disease? | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/04/health/parkinsons-disease-explainer/)** > > Boxing legend Muhammad Ali died Friday at age 74 after a lengthy battle against Parkinson’s disease. Ali was diagnosed with the disease in 1984, three years after he retired. > [@](#): > > “Even though Muhammad has Parkinson’s and his speech isn’t what it used to be, he can speak to people with his eyes. He can speak to people with his heart, and they connect with him,” wife Lonnie Ali said. > > She said \*\*doctors told her the disease was not the result of absorbing too many punches but a genetic condition. > \*\* > Ten weeks before Ali’s match in 1980 against Larry Holmes, a team of doctors at the Mayo Clinic submitted a medical report to the Nevada State Athletic Commission describing a small hole in his brain’s outer layer and noting that the boxer reported a tingling sensation in his hands and slurred speech. He retired permanently in 1981. > > Ali was instrumental in raising awareness of Parkinson’s and in 1997, he and his wife co-founded the Muhammad Ali Parkinson Center in Phoenix, Arizona, to provide comprehensive care for those living with the disease, according to the Parkinson’s Disease Foundation. On Saturday the center posted a video in which patients paid tribute to Ali and to his fight against Parkinson’s disease. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/85 "2016-06-05T23:28:00Z")
Yeah, Ali was such a flaming racist that he gave Angelo Dundee - a white guy - the single most important job in his stable, and his lack of trust in Angelo was such that he kept him there for basically his entire career. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/86 "2016-06-05T23:32:19Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > You’ve got 2 things working against you. 1. You refuse to worship at the feet of Muhammad Ali 2. It is a common tactic to accuse a poster of being a troll if you don’t like their opinion. > > Plus, if your not one of the “Board Favorites” then there’s a third strike against you. He’s also got the whole refusal to cite his claims thing working against him. Plus the recent join date coupled with a “your message board sucks” attitude. Plus the trolly McJerk vibe. You, on the other hand, have been here for three years. So you probably don’t need anyone pointing out that these things generally don’t get a welcoming response. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/87 "2016-06-05T23:41:33Z")
Why is it so terrible if his Parkinsons WAS caused by so many years of taking hits to the head? (In fact, I thought it WAS determined to be the case) After all, how many other athletes are now showing signs of serious dementia due to head trauma? I wouldn’t be surprised if he was also suffering from [CTE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy). If anything, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t. > [@cherry\_pez](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the term “punch drunk”. I’d say that about Frazier or Hearns or Holyfield or Holmes. But I think it’s inaccurate for someone like Ali or Jerry Quarry. What they had went way beyond an impairment. But, I don’t know, maybe it is insensitive now that we know so much more about brain trauma in sports. Always seemed like shorthand with no connotations. I think it’s because “punch drunk” sounds kind of like “getting your bell rung”, which sounds like dismissing it. It’s basically a symptom of a concussion, and we now know that multiple concussions can have serious consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/88 "2016-06-05T23:51:31Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Mike Tyson held racist beliefs too. But upon “growing up” he disavowed them. Ali never did any such thing. He held such beliefs in his 30s, so unless disavowed, it’s safe to assume the he still holds them. Actually it’s pretty definite that Ali no longer holds those, or any other, beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/89 "2016-06-06T00:32:28Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Asshole That’s MISTER Asshole to you. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/90 "2016-06-06T00:52:05Z")
Yeah, he scored 78 on an Army I.Q. test (twice, in fact). He was also very good at coming up with clever statements. Here are some of them: > **[30 of Muhammad Ali's best quotes](https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/boxing/2016/06/03/muhammad-ali-best-quotes-boxing/85370850/)** > > Ali is considered to be the greatest heavyweight boxer of all-time. Is there any evidence that he was actually not very intelligent? No, his statement that he was the greatest, not the smartest, doesn’t count. That was really kind of a clever reply to a question. It’s hard to believe that someone who could so often reply in such clever ways was stupid. This makes me suspicious of the Army I.Q. test. Has anyone read a complete biography of him? What does it say about his intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/91 "2016-06-06T00:53:47Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I’m willing to give Ali credit for that, at the same time, I give more credit to what someone does and says when they are at their prime, not when they are a broken down sympathetic old man. Ali didn’t just change his mind last week, or on a particular date, it was most likely a long process over the course of decades. So no, it didn’t happen when he was a “sympathetic old man”, it started earlier than that. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/92 "2016-06-06T04:33:48Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Yeah, he scored 78 on an Army I.Q. test (twice, in fact). He was also very good at coming up with clever statements. Here are some of them: > > [30 of Muhammad Ali's best quotes](http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/boxing/2016/06/03/muhammad-ali-best-quotes-boxing/85370850/) > > Is there any evidence that he was actually not very intelligent? No, his statement that he was the greatest, not the smartest, doesn’t count. That was really kind of a clever reply to a question. It’s hard to believe that someone who could so often reply in such clever ways was stupid. This makes me suspicious of the Army I.Q. test. Has anyone read a complete biography of him? What does it say about his intelligence? i rather liked this one: "A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/93 "2016-06-06T05:38:46Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > You’ve got 2 things working against you. 1. You refuse to worship at the feet of Muhammad Ali 2. It is a common tactic to accuse a poster of being a troll if you don’t like their opinion. > > Plus, if your not one of the “Board Favorites” then there’s a third strike against you. 1.) I have no opinion on Ali either way except that I’m sorry anyone died. 2.) He’s a troll because of lots of reasons, least of all acting all disingenuous that he shouldn’t have to provide cites. 3.) I’ve been here since 2001 and we have so few folks left, I have no idea who the “board favorites” might be. Would you like to share with the rest of the class or will we have to do your homework for you too? Or what **Not Carlson** said. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/94 "2016-06-06T07:30:28Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Fine, I’m a troll. Great. Prove it! The “proof,” such as it is, is your continued insistence on giving research assignments to strangers. All of this “a quick google [will turn up the evidence for my assertions]” nonsense points toward you not being confident that it will do any such thing. Or is it that you don’t know how to post a link in vBB? A quick google should fix you right up. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/95 "2016-06-06T12:39:49Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner View](#): > > Is there any evidence that he was actually not very intelligent? Well, his scores on IQ tests, and the fact that he graduated 376th out of 391 students in his high school ([cite](http://www.ask.com/education/did-muhammad-ali-his-education-8be06c40e63fdfaf)). He was brilliant at boxing, but that is a different form of intelligence. I don’t think he was smart - he hit on an act that people found entertaining, and he stuck to it. He was sort of reminiscent of vaudeville - he did the same thing (out of the ring) for thirty years and people accepted it as a tradition, and they were willing to overlook or forget the nasty stuff, like calling Frazier and Patter “Uncle Tom” and the racism of the Nation of Islam. He wasn’t IMO very insightful - he reacted to the moment, and sometimes that worked out and sometimes it didn’t. Malcolm X talked about the hurt he felt when Ali cut off contact at the direction of Elijah Muhammed, when the NoI was trying to get rid of Malcolm X because Malcolm was a threat to Elijah Muhammed’s position. Ali was in (I think) Manila for the last fight with Frazier. He had brought Veronica with him, with whom he was having an affair but presenting her as if she were his wife. Ali held a press conference to clear things up. Some sports writer who I can’t recall said it was the first time he knew about where someone called a press conference to announce that he was cheating on his wife. Ali was a great boxer, a great entertainer, and very much a product of his times. He mellowed as the times mellowed. RIP. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/96 "2016-06-06T12:46:57Z")
^ Regardless (heh) of whether one agrees with all of this or not, I think this is a really fair and balanced view, and shows how it’s perfectly possible to be critical without being insulting. So I’d just like to say, nicely done. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/97 "2016-06-06T12:50:11Z")
Thanks, Shodan. Still, I wonder if he was simply the kind of guy who goofed off through high school. Perhaps he goofed off through the I.Q. test. Again, has anyone read a biography of him? What was he like in his ordinary interactions with other people? Did most people who interacted with him say, “Gee, he’s kind of stupid”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/98 "2016-06-06T13:19:24Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > Regardless (heh) of whether one agrees with all of this or not, I think this is a really fair and balanced view, and shows how it’s perfectly possible to be critical without being insulting. So I’d just like to say, nicely done Thanks, but I am still pissed - I had Ali in the Death Pool a couple of years ago, and this year I didn’t even post a list. If I had gotten any points for him, it would have been more laudatory. 😃 > [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > Thanks, Shodan. Still, I wonder if he was simply the kind of guy who goofed off through high school. Perhaps he goofed off through the I.Q. test. Again, has anyone read a biography of him? What was he like in his ordinary interactions with other people? Did most people who interacted with him say, “Gee, he’s kind of stupid”? I have read biographies of him, including his autobiographies, although I never met him. He goofed off in high school (AFAICT) because he could get away with it - he was never going to be anything more than a boxer, or a lower middle class worker like his father (who was a sign painter). So he relied on the fact that he was a great boxer (he won the Olympics the same year he left high school). Ali was an entertainer 24/7. He did the bragging act all the time. That’s why he was so good at it - he got a lot of practice. And he was an entertainer in his interactions with his fans as well. He would do simple magic tricks in training camp. He wasn’t very good, but he was Ali. That’s what made his later years so sad. His Parkinsonianism made it impossible for him to do the act and be the charming rascal. I am kind of surprised he made it to 74 - the light had gone out of his life. There is a documentary on YouTube called IIRC “Muhammed and Larry”, about his fight with Larry Holmes. Going into the fight, it should have been clear that he no longer had it, and he was going to take a bad -very bad - beating. But Ali and everyone else had talked Ali and everyone else into thinking he could bring off one last miracle. And it took ten horrible rounds of Ali soaking up a ghastly pounding before Angelo Dundee finally overruled the Muslims who were trying to believe in the myth and said “I’m the chief second, and I’m stopping the fight!” And even then it wasn’t enough - Ali got into the ring with Trevor Berbick, who was just another good heavyweight, and wandered around the ring for ten rounds taking a few hundred more head shots before people finally accepted that the dream was over. Boxing is tragedy. Once in a while someone breaks out - Gene Tunney died a rich man, and one of his sons became a Senator. But for every Tunney, there is a Joe Louis, a half-demented old man subsisting off the charity of a casino owner, or Sugar Ray Robinson staring off into the blankness of Alzheimer’s, or Ali, a mumbling, quivering old man. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/99 "2016-06-06T16:22:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > How come when Hispanics or Native Americans are proud of their heritage it’s admirable, but when Ali expresses pride in his heritage he’s racist? > > And for that matter, is not all pride in one’s heritage racist? I mean, it necessarily evinces a belief that everyone else’s heritage is inferior, right? And it demonstrates us vs. them thinking, right? > > So let’s not be hearing any more from the left about how members of this race or that race should take pride in their heritage, because also according to the left this makes them racist assholes. > > Right? There is a distinct difference between taking pride in ones heritage and excluding those outside it. “People of X-ethinicity are fine but I wouldn’t let my daughter marry one”, is the calling card of a bigot. A native American can value the ceremonies and dances of his people and still not see anything wrong with his daughter marrying an Italian and learning to cook chicken cacciatore. Provided she still comes home for the Powwow, and teaches her children to respect their grandparent’s traditions she can still be said to have pride in her heritage. It’s not about superiority, it’s about respecting and valuing differences. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/100 "2016-06-06T17:08:25Z")
Starting to sound like he was a victim of elder abuse, of people taking advantage of him at the end of his career for just a little more money. Like B.B.King. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=6)