# Discussion of Ali being racist \[mod title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549 "2016-06-04T19:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/161 "2016-06-11T01:31:02Z")
Once a angry Stevenson Democrat, always a angry Stevenson Democrat … right? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/162 "2016-06-11T01:47:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No I’m not. You are – you say that he remained a racist. If so, then you should have some evidence. > > Not that I believe you’re actually interested in any reasonable discussion here. I said that he never disavowed his racist ways. This shouldn’t be hard to understand. The burden of proof is on you to cite him disavowing. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/163 "2016-06-11T01:49:50Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So you’re too much of a coward to answer my actual question. > > And your only response is to whine about ‘the left’ and call other people racists. > > You’re nothing but an angry little man child with zero intellect or character. Done with you. You’ve become irrational and emotional, abandoning all logic. I’ve answered almost all of your silly questions. I’ve cited Ali’s racism. When all else failed, out of desperation, you resorted to calling me a racist. I think it’s best that you bow out. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/164 "2016-06-11T01:53:31Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I like to think of myself as an Elder Statesman on this board, though the reality is that I’m a schmoe who hasn’t been banned yet, but I will put on my Elder Statesman robe and ask why this racist troll hasn’t been banned yet. Another leftist coward, when on the ropes, desperately resorting to calling me a racist. When all else fails, right? I’m nicely asking you to cite a single racist statement that I’ve made. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/165 "2016-06-11T01:58:00Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > Well right there you’ve got a good example of a great man with some flaws that people tend to overlook because his sum goodness outweighed the bad. [As the master has explained.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2449/was-martin-luther-king-jr-a-plagiarist) (Sorry, don’t know much about the other two.) > > The flawless hero is a rare (perhaps mythical) creature. > > Maybe you can’t see past Ali’s flaws and consider his wrong-doings to be unforgivable. That’s a pity, considering he meant so much to so many people. > > Also, **Brookstic’s** provision of relevant information was not a “desperate attempt” at anything. It was a valid response indicative of a greater effort than you are willing to put into your own lame excuse of a thread, and probably far more effort than you deserve. Stop being a Jackass. We’re all flawed. But since when is racism so easily dismissed? Since when is racism merely described as a flaw? MLK being an adulterer is hardly comparable to Ali being a racist. Randomly listing charities is a perverted and lazy attempt at corroborating heroism. You’re defending a man who stood with the KKK. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/166 "2016-06-11T02:05:20Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > I said that he never disavowed his racist ways. This shouldn’t be hard to understand. The burden of proof is on you to cite him disavowing. Please explain how Ali could support a short, Jewish comedian - to the point of affectionately calling said comedian “little brother” - without disavowing any racist ways. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/167 "2016-06-11T02:07:22Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > I said that he never disavowed his racist ways. This shouldn’t be hard to understand. The burden of proof is on you to cite him disavowing. The cites have been coming for several posts now. Everyone who can be convinced (that is, everyone in this thread but you) is already convinced. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/168 "2016-06-11T02:10:49Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Ali invited Billy Crystal to do some early morning roadwork with him at a golf course. Crystal said he couldn’t join Ali because that course is part of a country club which didn’t allow Jews. Ali then stopped using that golf course. > > Cite: Billy Crystal speaking at Ali’s eulogy. [I saw a report that Ali did actually plan the details of his funeral](http://www.newser.com/story/226257/muhammad-ali-planned-funeral-details-in-the-book.html), and who were invited also? 2 rabbis that eulogized Ali. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/169 "2016-06-11T02:14:41Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > We’re all flawed. But since when is racism so easily dismissed? Ever since actions against racism and prejudice spoke louder than words. And since this is the pit, by now you are only defending your time line blind brain of yours. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/170 "2016-06-11T02:25:45Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > I’m nicely asking you to cite a single racist statement that I’ve made. It’s the implication. I grew up as a Yankee Down South during the death throes of Jim Crow. I know you, or your type. We tried to eradicate you fifty-some years ago. You are anathema (look it up, loser). Crawl beneath a bridge not even goats use. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/171 "2016-06-11T02:29:41Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > He was a cold racist; and like most racists, he was of extremely low intellect (78 IQ). > [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Mike Tyson held racist beliefs too. But upon “growing up” he disavowed them. Ali never did any such thing. He held such beliefs in his 30s, so unless disavowed, it’s safe to assume the he still holds them. A racist has never been given such benefit of doubt! > [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > He never disavowed his racist past. First off, [Mohammed](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/muhammad-alis-new-fight-literacy/) Ali had [dyslexia](http://athome.readinghorizons.com/research/dyslexia/muhammad-ali), which was [undiagnosed](http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/success-stories/muhammad-ali) when he took that test (and when he was in high school). Ergo, his low class ranking and score on an IQ test are irrelevant and faulty measures of his true intelligence, even if there were no other reasons, which there were. As for [disavowing](https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali) his earlier opinions… > [@](#): > > The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life. > > - Interview in Playboy magazine (November 1975) > [@](#): > > Religions all have different names, but they all contain the same truths. … I think the people of our religion should be tolerant and understand people believe different things. > > - When asked how he felt about the suspects in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks sharing his Islamic faith > [@](#): > > Over the years my religion has changed and my spirituality has evolved. Religion and spirituality are very different, but people often confuse the two. Some things cannot be taught, but they can be awakened in the heart. Spirituality is recognizing the divine light that is within us all. It doesn’t belong to any particular religion; it belongs to everyone. > [@](#): > > We all have the same God, we just serve him differently. Rivers, lakes, ponds, streams, oceans all have different names, but they all contain water. So do religions have different names, and they all contain truth, expressed in different ways forms and times. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew. When you believe in God, you should believe that all people are part of one family. If you love God, you can’t love only some of his children. > [@](#): > > My soul has grown over the years, and some of my views have changed. As long as I am alive, I will continue to try to understand more because the work of the heart is never done. All through my life I have been tested. My will has been tested, my courage has been tested, my strength has been tested. Now my patience and endurance are being tested. Every step of the way I believe that God has been with me. And, more than ever, I know that he is with me now. I have learned to live my life one step, one breath, and one moment at a time, but it was a long road. I set out on a journey of love, seeking truth, peace and understanding. l am still learning. > [@](#): > > Once we realize we are all members of humanity, we will want to compete in the spirit of love. > In a competition of love we would not be running against one another, but with one another. We would be trying to gain victory for all humanity. If I am a faster runner than you, you may feel bad seeing me pass you in the race, but if you know that we are both racing to make our world better, you will feel good knowing that we are racing toward a common goal, a mutual reward. > In a competition of love we’ll all share in the victory, no matter who comes first. > [@](#): > > There live a great man named Joe > who was belittled by a loudmouth foe. > While his rival would taunt and tease > Joe silently bore the stings. > And then fought like gladiator in the ring. > > - “The Silent Warrior”, dedicated to Joe Frazier and his family, p. 112 > [@](#): > > For every struggle that Joe survived, > For every dispute he endured, to rise, > Joe will go down in history > as a model for champions to come. > While Frazier was a man of few words, > Ali was a world of mouth, > but he found his place in history. > Now his heart can express him well. > Joe Frazier was a silent warrior, > whom Ali silently admired. > One could not rise without the other. > > - “The Silent Warrior”, p. 114 [And probably most directly addressing your complaint](http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/civil-rights-movement/essays/importance-muhammad-ali): > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Ali’s religious views were evolving. In the mid-1970s, he began studying the Qur’an more seriously, focusing on Orthodox Islam. His earlier adherence to the teachings of Elijah Muhammad—that white people are “devils” and there is no heaven or hell—was replaced by a spiritual embrace of all people and preparation for his own afterlife. In 1984, Ali spoke out publicly against the separatist doctrine of Nation of Islam representative Louis Farrakhan, declaring, **“What he teaches is not at all what we believe in. He represents the time of our struggle in the dark and a time of confusion in us, and we don’t want to be associated with that at all.”** That’s his disavowal of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. That is his direct statement that his views had changed and he no longer agreed with the message of Louis Farrakhan, the views he previously advocated. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/172 "2016-06-11T03:04:20Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Please explain how Ali could support a short, Jewish comedian - to the point of affectionately calling said comedian “little brother” - without disavowing any racist ways. Possibly because Jews didn’t import and enslave Ali’s “people” and then grant them “freedom” only to continue the oppression in more or - more often - less polite ways. Possibly because Jews have faced the same and worse for a millennia or three. Possibly because they’re both kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/173 "2016-06-11T04:41:39Z")
Giraffes Can’t Dance writes: \> Ali was a magnificent boxer. But as a person, he was a dim-witted racist. So what? Do you really think that it’s impossible for a person to be morally very good on one issue and morally very bad on another issue? Most people (and possibly everybody) are logically inconsistent. Most people (and possibly everybody) are morally inconsistent. You can try to explain to such people that, since they consider one particular way of being virtuous important, they should consider another way of being virtuous important. They don’t get it, and it takes a major reorganization of their logical and moral thinking to understand what you’re even talking about. The minds of most people (and perhaps of everybody) are masses of inconsistent logical/moral/aesthetic/etc. thought. That’s just how human beings work. You just have to get used to that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/174 "2016-06-11T04:50:25Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > I can’t “cite” something that doesn’t exist. You’re making the claim that X happened. The burden of proof is on you. > > You’ll probably site some ambiguous quote or something in that vein. What you will not be able to find, because it doesn’t exist, is a statement from Ali in which he disavowed his racist, segregation-supporting past. What, you’re too lazy to google? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/175 "2016-06-11T15:00:47Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Giraffes Can’t Dance writes: > > \> Ali was a magnificent boxer. But as a person, he was a dim-witted racist. > > So what? Do you really think that it’s impossible for a person to be morally very good on one issue and morally very bad on another issue? Most people (and possibly everybody) are logically inconsistent. Most people (and possibly everybody) are morally inconsistent. You can try to explain to such people that, since they consider one particular way of being virtuous important, they should consider another way of being virtuous important. They don’t get it, and it takes a major reorganization of their logical and moral thinking to understand what you’re even talking about. The minds of most people (and perhaps of everybody) are masses of inconsistent logical/moral/aesthetic/etc. thought. That’s just how human beings work. You just have to get used to that. But most people are not considered heroes, to be worshipped upon their death. Attaching heroism to a blatant racist is troubling. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/176 "2016-06-11T15:13:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It’s the implication. I grew up as a Yankee Down South during the death throes of Jim Crow. I know you, or your type. We tried to eradicate you fifty-some years ago. You are anathema (look it up, loser). Crawl beneath a bridge not even goats use. You’ve gotta do better than “implication”. Don’t take the cowards way out. Calling someone a racist is a serious accusation. This is another example of a desperate leftist. Because this leftist is unable to articulate their opposing opinion, they’ve resorted to calling me racist, afraid to specifically cite anything. Such is par for the course with leftists. Their objective: 1.) Unable to compose a logical opposing viewpoint, calling me a racist discredits the loudness of my logic. 2.) By simply calling me a racist–thus forcing me to take time to defend myself–the momentum of the debate is halted, diverting us from what we were discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/177 "2016-06-11T15:40:32Z")
Irishman, Nothing you’ve cited specifically acknowledges or disavows Ali’s racist past. Elijah Muhammad was the leader of the NOA while Ali was rubbing shoulders with the KKK. Ali didn’t like Farrakhan personally, so he left the NOA. Ali’s disavowing of Farrakhan is irrelevant. I appreciate your efforts in citing Ali’s evolving religious views, and his far-too-late sympathy for Joe Frazier, but unless you can specially cite Ali disavowing Elijah or his involvement with the KKK, you’ve missed the point. Let’s go further… Let’s say that through the vague poems and all the ascribing to ambiguity that you’ve cited, Ali did disavow his racist past. Such a hypothetical doesn’t change the fact that Ali is praised as a hero for what he did/said during the period in which he was preaching on behalf of segregation, rubbing shoulders with the KKK. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/178 "2016-06-11T16:58:51Z")
I see your ignorance now … you think fighting _against_ racism is, in of itself, racism. That’s pretty ignorant if you ask me. This seems to be your own special kind of ignorance, thus the complete lack of any citations to back up your claims. Your ignorance is so special you don’t even know that it’s, in fact, ignorant. We celebrate Muhammad Ali’s life because he _did_ evolve. he _did_ learn. Just as We the People have evolved, We the People have learned. Well, at least, most of us have … there are those with learning disabilities after all … [snicker] ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/179 "2016-06-11T18:30:50Z")
Giraffes Can’t Dance writes: \> But most people are not considered heroes, to be worshipped upon their death. \> Attaching heroism to a blatant racist is troubling. Who here is worshipping him? He’s a flawed human being. So are we all. Lots of racists were also heroes in other ways. Again, it’s possible to have one virtue without having another virtue. I think Thomas Jefferson did good things for the U.S. despite his being a slaveholder. I wish both Jefferson and Ali had been better and more morally consistent people, but they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549/180 "2016-06-11T23:19:53Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It’s the implication. I grew up as a Yankee Down South during the death throes of Jim Crow. I know you, or your type. We tried to eradicate you fifty-some years ago. You are anathema (look it up, loser). Crawl beneath a bridge not even goats use. You and I and others know that there’s a certain sort who just can’t stomach a black man being describe in favorable terms… or at least not without qualification. Lots of qualification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-ali-being-racist-mod-title/756549.md?page=10)