# Discussion of the novel, Master and Commander **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841 "2010-01-06T02:05:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/41 "2010-01-08T22:02:01Z")
“…And in that case we must run down on his bow, or his quarter if he wears, and carry him by boarding, so as not to damage his hull nor those precious spars I see on his deck.” We have some new readers in the thread, so I’ll not spoil the fourth novel for them. I’ve just begun the novel again, but as I recall The Brits were far from home and from a supply line. The French held the islands Jack’s squadron was to take away from them and had plenty of supplies. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/42 "2010-01-09T17:09:30Z")
I have a question about the movie but don’t want to start a new thread. What was it about making smoke that would make the _Surprise_ look like a whaling ship? Did whaling ships render the whales on board? Is that what made smoke? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/43 "2010-01-09T17:34:00Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Did whaling ships render the whales on board? Is that what made smoke? Yes, they rendered and packed the oil into barrels. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/44 "2010-01-09T17:55:58Z")
Thanks! Lucky for them that the _Acheron_ was upwind and didn’t smell the smoke. Seems like you’d be able to smell a whaler for miles. I assume there was a lot of CGI in the movie but I sure couldn’t tell. And the fight scenes – what a melee! I can’t imagine that the armbands helped a lot, in telling friend from foe. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/45 "2010-01-10T20:41:25Z")
What about the astonishing range of headgear (worn by the officers)? The midshipmen wear mini top-hat like things, Jack has a fore-and-aft hat, the 1st officer wears a flat top derby. When did the Royal Navy formalize the hats? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/46 "2010-01-10T21:45:41Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Jack has a fore-and-aft hat, In the novels, Jack wears his athwartships in the old style. ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/47 "2010-01-10T21:57:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > In the novels, Jack wears his athwartships in the old style. As he does in the movie, with Pullings sporting the more modern fore-and-aft style 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/48 "2010-01-11T00:37:23Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What about the astonishing range of headgear (worn by the officers)? The midshipmen wear mini top-hat like things, Jack has a fore-and-aft hat, the 1st officer wears a flat top derby. > When did the Royal Navy formalize the hats? They had little as far as rules went. Even the bit I quoted about epaulets was merely “custom and tradition” for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/49 "2010-01-11T02:35:28Z")
From the [gunroom](http://www.hmssurprise.org/) of HMS Surprise, [Aubreyisms.](http://www.hmssurprise.org/Resources/Aubreyisms.html) “You have made your cake, and you must lit in it.” For new readers, Aubrey is a martial god at sea, but a ninny on land. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/50 "2010-01-11T03:06:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > “You have made your cake, and you must lit in it.” “You have made your cake and you must lie in it”, dammit. I’m as bad as Jack. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/51 "2010-01-11T04:04:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > From the [gunroom](http://www.hmssurprise.org/) of HMS Surprise, [Aubreyisms.](http://www.hmssurprise.org/Resources/Aubreyisms.html) “You have made your cake, and you must lit in it.” > For new readers, Aubrey is a martial god at sea, but a ninny on land. These are some of my favorite parts of the books. I love when Maturin ‘helps’ him finish the phrases that are on the tip of his tongue. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/52 "2010-01-11T04:16:15Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > These are some of my favorite parts of the books. I love when Maturin ‘helps’ him finish the phrases that are on the tip of his tongue. Oh, there you are! Yes, Maturin can be a mean son of a bitch at times. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/53 "2010-01-11T11:05:51Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > “The bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night, that our flag was still there.” > > I believe there was also something of an unspoken gentleman’s agreement not to use explosive shell against ships for a very long time after said shell had been developed, because it would devastate ships so effectively. When explosive shell finally _was_ used against wooden ships routinely (Sevastopol, iirc, and the American Civil War), navies very quickly sought out ironclads, and technological revolution swept away the beautiful and effective wooden fleets almost immediately. There’s also the fact that bombs were hugely impopular… aboard the ship carrying them. Fire on board was already one of the worst dangers a ship could face, fire that could go boom and shower everyone around in shrapnel at any time, doubly so. By their very nature, bombs significantly increased the amount of gunpowder present on the gun deck during battle. And gunpowder loooves accidents 😉 In the early days, before [some asshole](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paixhans_gun) invented a way to make them marginally reliable and safe to handle, they also vastly increased the risk of cannon blowing up instead of firing, which is always amusing to the enemy but rarely to the gun crew. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/54 "2010-01-12T15:30:41Z")
> [@Rocketeer](#): > > Is that Marryat? Yes–Captain Frederick Marryat was one of Cochrane’s midshipmen, went on to become a post captain, and retired to become a popular and successful novelist. Now, mostly forgotten, except for readers interested in Napoleonic sea stories. I think \*Mr. Midshipman Easy \*was his novel that has a version of Cochrane as the captain, but I am not sure off-hand. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/55 "2010-01-12T16:08:34Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > Yes–Captain Frederick Marryat …Now, mostly forgotten, except for readers interested in Napoleonic sea stories. Here is [his entry](http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/m#a627) on Gutenberg. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/56 "2010-02-14T23:55:43Z")
I have another question. I’m reading _The Mauritius Command_ and they’re talking about ships “within” or “in” other ships, e.g., “within” a frigate, and they’re discussing ships that have been captured by the enemy. From the context, I can’t tell what they mean. I know you can’t put a ship inside another ship. Are they referring to a captured ship that’s been refitted? Same ship, new name, new fittings? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/57 "2010-02-15T00:05:19Z")
Can you quote the lines for us? I don’t remember the term, and I just finished reading it. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/58 "2010-02-15T02:03:04Z")
I paged through and couldn’t find it, but I’m about to start _Desolation Island_ and I’ll mark it if I see it again. I’m remembering that they were referring to the _Windham_ or the _Sirius_ and the comment was something like “I think that’s the _Windham_ within that [French] frigate.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/59 "2010-02-15T02:23:19Z")
First page of Chapter Eight. “Stephen turned from the rail, where he had been staring under his shading hand at the ship lying within the frigate.” I don’t have a clue. I take it to mean within range or sight of the Boadiceas frigate Stephen is in. “The frigate” refers to the Boadiceas on the next page. I loaded it back up on my Palm and searched for “within”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841/60 "2010-02-15T02:34:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I loaded it back up on my Palm and searched for “within”. 🙂 See! That’s why I need an e-reader thingie. No clue here either. It’s some odd word usage, even for O’Brian. It could mean within sight of, and it does make some sense. Wasn’t Lord Clonfort something? And Dr. McAdam? Lordy, but Stephen and Jack do meet some interesting people. TCM showed _The Sea Hawk_ and _Mutiny on the Bounty_ over the weekend. The sailing stuff seemed pretty realistic in _The Sea Hawk_, not so much in _Bounty_. I’ve been looking for a picture or drawing of the log contraption they used to determine speed. If you run across one, let me know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-the-novel-master-and-commander/523841.md?page=4)