# Discussion of white "privilege" \[kinda'long\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 31, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384 "2011-10-31T15:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/41 "2011-11-01T00:04:51Z")
I’m white, I didn’t ‘get it’ until I started to think about privilege and racism not as overt, single incidents but as very subtle, all-pervasive societal attitudes. Setting aside the obviously racist/sexist/etc. jerks, there are still subtle but real pressures in our culture to treat people differently depending on certain characteristics. There’s a study showing that women who negotiate for a higher salary are on average seen as ‘less nice’ and ‘overly aggressive’, whereas men who negotiate for a higher salary don’t get seen as better or worse. Interestingly, when the woman negotiates strongly on someone else’s behalf, she’s not penalized for it. [cite](http://www.hks.harvard.edu/ksgpress/update/winter2006/stories/q_a.htm) I don’t have examples of other types of unconscious prejudice handy, but stuff like this is pretty common in America and I would assume in all of the first world. This is all on the average. No one particular person is _trying_ to do this, in fact if you ask people most of them will say they’re trying to work against it. It still happens, probably subconsciously for most people. The only thing to do about it is to be aware of it, acknowledge it, and then watch your own actions like a hawk. Even if everyone were perfectly aware of all of it tomorrow, it wouldn’t change quickly. It’s something that will take a few generations of discussion to change, I think. I will say that I suspect socioeconomic class makes a much bigger difference in America right now than skin color does, at least where I’m from. Someone who has dark skin and dresses professionally will probably get better service in a restaurant than someone who has light skin and dresses and talks ‘ghetto’. Unfortunately socioeconomic classes tend to be split on racial lines right now, so in practice it doesn’t make a lot of difference. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/42 "2011-11-01T00:09:47Z")
Except the point doesn’t really stand, if you’re going to say pretty much everywhere but the U.S. is isolated and homogenous. Pretty much any metropolitan area anywhere is going to have a lot of racial diversity - there’s no way London or Paris or Rio de Janeiro or Sydney is less diverse than, say, Little Rock or Kansas City or Phoenix or Charlotte. And just like those countries, the U.S. has areas that are fairly homogeneous the further you get from the cities (drive through rural or suburban Montana or Utah sometime). We’re not that exceptional. ETA: Response to **Rigamarole**. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/43 "2011-11-01T01:19:57Z")
**rachelellogram** does have a point, however, **astorian** ’s point is that people can choose where to live, if you want minimal contact with people of other races, this can be achieved, sounds like a dull life to me though. If it wasn’t for blacks, I’d still have to listen to [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMMUlU1PY8E) :D, but because of their influence I can now enjoy [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m48GqaOz90&ob=av3n). Yes I know, an insignificant thing when compared to what’s being discussed here, but it is a testament to the influence that all cultures have had on US society and I strongly believe that if it wasn’t for the open-mindedness of the country as a whole, then the BEP’s wouldn’t exist. I recognize that there are some extreme, almost religious racists out there in this country, I also know that those of us that aren’t racist (which seems to be most people, regardless of color, from my standpoint) are extremely prejudice against racists (mainly those that are of our own race). One thing I’ve started having a problem with is calling other races minorities, you can’t be a minority if you’re a majority, it doesn’t work that way, and more and more, white people are becoming the minority, it won’t be long before we’re called that, in fact I’ve heard many people state this before. Just google “are whites becoming a minority”, and you’ll get tons of stuff saying yes (others saying no too I suppose, but it is the internet…it never agrees with itself :D). I can sit here and argue (convincingly too), that whites are the ones being oppressed now, not that I’d ever have a problem with it, hell, white people have done some terrible things and it’s payback time, but will a small group of white people stand around and say “hey, look at all these minorities”, when they’re the minority? :smack: That’s stupid…nuff said… ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/44 "2011-11-01T01:34:59Z")
It’s worth noting where the concept of “white privilege” comes from. I don’t think anybody is going to say that, statistically, whites don’t have more advantages. That’s…well, obvious, and easily supported. As I understand it, “Privilege” was a concept that was developed not merely to fit data, but explicitly to challenge a lack of empathy in white students. It was all about combating “bootstraps” mentality – trying to force students to understand that they had advantages others wouldn’t have regardless of how hard they worked. It was intended to force people to understand that “normal,” socially, isn’t really “comfortable, middle-to-upper-middle-class white.” The concept seems to get exceedingly overused lately; every young liberal nowadays seems to adopt “fighting X privilge” as a battle cry, and I think it looks like an ugly “poor me” dialogue. In my opinion, it’s an exceedingly bad rhetoric, because it’s suited purely for choir-preaching. This thread is an example: if somebody’s not on-board with your arguments, you couldn’t choose a more annoying and alienating rhetoric than complaining about everybody else’s privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/45 "2011-11-01T01:40:38Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Weird claim to make. Dont you guys have your “race” printed on you ID? ? On what ID is “race” printed in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/46 "2011-11-01T02:31:56Z")
\*\*Bosstrain \*\*, I thought in sociology, ‘minority’ and ‘majority’ had to do with power, not numbers? ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/47 "2011-11-01T02:36:41Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > One could probably insert obese, female, Native American, Hispanic, extremely homely and acne-ridden, disabled, \, albino, gay, \, Roma, etc and etc and find similar “evidence” of majority privilege. To lay it all on some sort of definition of monolitic white hegemony seems a bit disingenuous. Certainly, and there are variations of this list out there for male privilege, straight privilege, etc. Some of them are really eye opening - you can quibble a lot of the individual points that you don’t feel are true, but most of them are accurate most of the time. I don’t think anyone’s trying to claim that white privilege is the only (or even the worst) form of privilege here. I’m female, white, young, and reasonably attractive. If I ever get into a dangerous situation, all I have to do is scream and everyone around will immediately assume I’m the victim. People are more likely to come to my rescue than for other demographics. I can also defend myself and be far less likely to end up with misplaced assault charges than, say, a forty year old man who rides a Harley, even under identical circumstances where we do an identical amount of damage to the attacker. Is that privilege? Hell yeah, and I enjoy every second of it! I haven’t needed it yet, but it’s nice to know the safety net is there. What would equality look like in this situation? I’d like to think that people would break up an altercation or at least call the cops for anyone. To a certain extent I suspect the ‘rescue the woman’ instinct is deeply bred into us, especially for attractive women of childbearing age. We’re not really going to change that without a few hundred thousand more years of evolution. But biological imperatives aside, I’d like to see the statistics even out. I hope people will become more likely to come to everyone’s rescue rather than less likely to come to mine! That’s not necessarily a zero-sum game. The court system is, though. If equality means that people are more likely to see me as a possible aggressor or I’m more likely to wind up explaining myself to a jury, I’m okay with that. There’s really no reason that my demographic should get the benefit of the doubt more than others. And we all know examples of people who abuse that benefit of the doubt. Maybe we can make progress there. How, I really don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/48 "2011-11-01T02:36:58Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I mean we can sit around making qualifiers and distinctions all night, to accommodate the idea that white people can be othered by non-whites. I would question how that is relevant to the thread. Oh, that’s not what I was saying. I was referring specifically to white folks in America. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/49 "2011-11-01T02:38:02Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > It’s that being white removes lower-level obstacles that non-white people face in America. You won’t ever be considered an ambassador for your race by your actions (or lack thereof). Yeah…except this isn’t true. The effect is massively lessened, but blanket binaries like this pollute the dialogue and are the reason people who don’t agree with you won’t. There’s stereotypes of white people aplenty, and that comes precisely from people perceiving white people as ambassadors of their race. White people have the luxury of dealing with it less frequently, of course. But painting it as “never ever” is needlessly reductivist. > [@](#): > > Before Obama became President, teachers weren’t telling classrooms full of black kids that they could be the President someday, because _there was no reason to think they could._ Really? I’m pretty sure people have thought black people _could_ be president for a long time now. There’s been an appreciable move towards equality in this country over the past years. Existing problems don’t mean inroads don’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/50 "2011-11-01T04:21:17Z")
> [@Bosstrain](#): > > Are you sure this isn’t just a vibe you’re getting that’s not there? I don’t mean to belittle your experiences, but you should know that in most if not all situations I’ve been in, people of all colors and even those that have difficulty with English have been accepted with open arms. For starters, it is amazing what people will say right in front of you when they assume that you don’t understand what they are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/51 "2011-11-01T04:46:26Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > For starters, it is amazing what people will say right in front of you when they assume that you don’t understand what they are saying. Ain’t that the truth? When I lived in China one of the first things I got as I learned the language is that people would sit right in front of me and talk about me. Not nicely, either. Living in both China and Japan gave me a lot of insight into race relations in the U.S. It was the first time in my life that every time I walked out in public, my race (and nationality, I suppose) was an issue. There was no chance of being in public and just being ignored or fitting in or mistaken for a native. As you pointed out in an earlier post, it wasn’t that I was snubbed or treated badly - in Japan, especially, being a white American gave me some privileges I had never experienced - but the day after day after day dealing with it just grinds you down after a while. Grinds you down and opens your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/52 "2011-11-01T05:20:37Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > That’s interesting. I’ve never thought of white privilege as an implication that white people ought to have it shittier - more that they should be taking a more active role in addressing the real effects of discrimination. Is there a difference? What does “they should be taking a more active role in addressing the real effects of discrimination” actually mean, in practice? You don’t need to fall back on “white privilege” to argue that treating people unfairly because of their race is bad. “White privilege” is only brought up when people want to claim treating a white person unfairly because of their race is not racism, it’s just making up for what those other white people did. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/53 "2011-11-01T10:17:02Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > There are many reasons it may be included on the census which I’m not going to discuss/speculate on. I don’t know if it’s really claiming excellence, but the fact is that we have such a diverse population that _everyone, everywhere_ is used to seeing and interacting with people of various races, so despite whatever private feelings we may be harboring, it would be impossible for our society to function if open displays of racism were tolerated. Whereas in a much more isolated and homogenous society (i.e. pretty much everywhere else when compared to the U.S.), that simply isn’t the case. A society were races are omnipresent cant seriously call itself non racist. That’s an oxymoron. In most Western nations, minorities will refer to their culture or the country of origin of their folks, very rarely by their “race”, that’s not the case in the US. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/54 "2011-11-01T11:39:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Is there a difference? What does “they should be taking a more active role in addressing the real effects of discrimination” actually mean, in practice? It means at least being aware of it, acknowledging it to yourself and bringing it the attention of others, so that at a minimum, people won’t continue to perpetrate discrimination while blissfully unaware. For a good example of white privilege, one needs to look no further than the news. If I were to turn up missing tomorrow, I seriously doubt any of yall would hear about it. I’m young, attractive, and female, but I’m also black. Missing black folks don’t make for sexy television. When a white victim of crime recieves 24 hr newscoverage on CNN and other national stations, while blacks and other groups barely make a blip on the local scene, it seriously makes you wonder if police resources are allocated in just the same way. This is what white privilege looks like to me. Do you think addressing this privilege is equivalent by making things “shittier” for whites? Because I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/55 "2011-11-01T13:00:30Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > We live in the least racist country on the planet Cite? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/56 "2011-11-01T13:19:08Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > In most Western nations, minorities will refer to their culture or the country of origin of their folks, very rarely by their “race”, that’s not the case in the US. Well, there was that period of slavery that did a pretty good job of erasing the original culture and countries of African-Americans ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/57 "2011-11-01T14:27:47Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > \*\*Bosstrain \*\*, I thought in sociology, ‘minority’ and ‘majority’ had to do with power, not numbers? A [Wiki on minority](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group), under controversial issues it gives some clear stuff on that and also echoes what I was saying. While it’s true that power is a part of it, it’s still just that a part, and it’s a part that can be dismantled rapidly I’d think. [This article](http://www.endofinnocence.com/2010/06/america-is-least-racist-country-in.html) is a start for **MrDibble** ’s request for a cite, and while other articles I found seemed to have differing views on it, I thought the discussion at the bottom between commenters was particularly interesting in the way it almost feels like the opinions in this thread :). I’ve only skimmed through it but it seemed rather good, maybe you guys can tear it apart though; anyway, the more material the better, now we need one that says the opposite and compare them ;). One veiw I saw was that the US is the most tolerant, yet also the most racist. That made me pause a bit, even though it sounds like a blatant oxymoron, if you start thinking about it it might be true. On the other hand, seeing as how there may be other countries that aren’t as racist toward some things, there’s very few that widely accept and embrace as many as the US, Sweden, for example, isn’t all that racist, yet they seem to harbor a hatred for Muslims (or so some reports suggest). As far as I know, the US will tolerate anyone, even the very religion that was accused of the 9/11 attacks (Bosstrain, why’d you have to go there, now we’re gonna’ argue whether it was the religion or the group that just so happened to be in said religion…). Relax, what I mean by saying that is in the past the US may have very likely decided that it was the religion as a whole and Muslims guilty and innocent would have paid equally, that’s not the case today, however, and though many people in the country may cast blame or shun them, it needs to be looked at on the grand scale. A few individuals can’t speak for the majority (there’s that word again :dubious:). Taking all that into consideration, it’s hard to say that toleration and racism are different, if you tolerate it on such a level that it doesn’t bother you, then it’s kinda’ hard to say you’re racist at the same time, but still, an interesting thought. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/58 "2011-11-01T14:37:38Z")
That list is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/59 "2011-11-01T15:29:57Z")
Even though I had seen first hand how my black friends received greater harassment than I did, I didn’t fully get white privilege until I became the minority in a US city. I was surrounded by people who didn’t look like me and had a different cultural background than me. Once, I visited a McDonalds in my city and saw a white man. I had only been living in that place for a few months, but I remember thinking, ‘What is he doing here?’. The white man was the ‘other’ and I was an other too. I can’t describe what it feels to be the ‘other’, and I can’t imagine what it is to be an other all your life. Even though I didn’t receive any harassment other than people constantly trying to short change me, life is amazingly easier when you are part of the majority, even in a city where there is no clear majority. Telling people that they can just move to a friendlier area is missing the point. They shouldn’t have to. I should be able to live in conservative Christian areas and be open about my relationships with women. I should be able to find ‘flesh colored’ bandages that match my skin tone. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384/60 "2011-11-01T16:15:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > 1. Not being able to find products made for my body. I remember breaking down and crying when the button on my pants popped while i was on vacation- I literally could not find another pair of pants in the entire city, at any price, to wear. And it was cold. This is a side note, but I’m curious which place’s inhabitants were so anatomically distinct from you that there were no wearable pants to be found anywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-of-white-privilege-kindalong/601384.md?page=4)