# Discussion on the fairness of child support being used to support people other than the children **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217 "2010-10-15T05:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/81 "2010-10-18T22:16:57Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > **PunditLisa** , that’s actually a fantastic idea. I wonder why none of us morons thought of it yet. Because it would have to get by the Family Court. And most such courts dislike anything that smacks of ‘buying the children’ or ‘the court gives them to whoever has the most money’. Had he offered that during the initial divorce negotiations – $1000 alimony and I get the kids – they might have agreed. Also, would she trust that he will keep this agreement? After all, neither of them may want to have this in writing. It might be hard to ever produce it in court, and the court might just throw it out as an unconscionable agreement – we don’t allow selling children. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/82 "2010-10-18T22:24:21Z")
It’s not the “most” money, it’s “the one who has ANY money”. 😛 But I do understand what you’re saying. It never crossed my mind tis all. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/83 "2010-10-18T22:44:18Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Because it would have to get by the Family Court. I wasn’t being serious, though it would be an interesting exercise to see if she’d take the bait. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/84 "2010-10-18T22:55:16Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > I don’t actually care that that’s what you think. The courts have decided in many states that custodial parents can get support until the child is 21. That’s why you saying “I’d vote against that” is immaterial and even naive. And some jurisdictions DON’T have such a law, and they’re right and the other ones are wrong, in my opinion. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, it’s very difficult to make the argument that people are adults at 18 when it is hard, even impossible to sign a lease regardless of income at 18 and most definitely illegal to drink alcohol. It should also be legal to drink alcohol at 18, as long as you’re asking what I think. As for signing a lease, some things are hard. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/85 "2010-10-18T23:26:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As for signing a lease, some things are hard. You’re advocating for a world that _literally_ does not exist, not one that “may”. Are you aware that even if your parents kick you out at 18, their finances (as in, how much they _should_ give you for college) are calculated when a potential student applies for the FAFSA? There are actual tragic stories of kids who can’t get aid because their parents aren’t destitute and kicked them out - the very situations are you waxing poetic on. There is a growing body of evidence as well that people’s brains grow (especially their ability to delay gratification) into their 20’s, yet the legal system randomly selected 18 and that’s supposed to be the final end to it all? Because you walked uphill both ways? Just because 150 years ago people got married in their teenage years and had children on dirt floors doesn’t mean we should romanticize the past. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > I wasn’t being serious, though it would be an interesting exercise to see if she’d take the bait. Y’know, I was thinking she’s just selfish enough to do it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/86 "2010-10-18T23:41:27Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Incidentally, it’s very difficult to make the argument that people are adults at 18 when it is hard, even impossible to sign a lease regardless of income at 18 and most definitely illegal to drink alcohol. Well, the alcohol thing is moronic. Plenty of civilized Western societies manage to allow people to buy and consume alcohol at 18 without much in the way of negative consequences. Regarding the lease thing, i could find no legal impediment to signing a lease at the age of 18, even in Mississippi, where the official age of majority is 21, but where the law specifically allows 18-year-olds to enter binding legal contracts, and to sue and be sued as an adult. As for what qualifies as a reasonable argument for calling someone an adult at 18, how important would you consider these factors? [ul] [li] in almost every state, the legal age of majority is 18. There are a couple of states where it’s 19, and in Mississippi it’s 21. And, as i noted above, even Mississippi has a bunch of exceptions which make 18 the effective age of majority for many legal questions[/li][li] in all those states, including Mississippi, you can be charged with a crime as an adult when you reach the age of 18, or even earlier[/li][li] you can join the armed forces and fight and die for your country at 18[/li][li] you can register and vote in elections at 18[/li][li] in every US state, the age of consent for sexual intercourse is 18 or lower, as is the age for marriage[/li][li] in every US state, you can get a license to drive a car at age 18 or lower[/li][/ul]Basically, the main thing that legally distinguishes an 18-year-old from a 21-year-old in the United States is the ability to buy alcohol. You’ve made some impassioned arguments for treating 18-year-olds as dependents. How would you feel if, along with this, society decided that you couldn’t vote, drive, have sex, get married, join the military, or get a job without your parents’ consent, until you turned 21? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/87 "2010-10-18T23:44:07Z")
If 9 people are living in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment, they’re probably violating rules for occupancy of a rental property and could be reported. If they are living in section 8 housing, there are also rules and regs regarding the gender of kids bunking together. A boy and a girl over a certain age can’t typically share rooms, IIRC. That said, reporting them could lead to eviction. This would penalize the adults, true, but it would also hurt the kids. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/88 "2010-10-18T23:59:22Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > You’re advocating for a world that _literally_ does not exist, not one that “may”. You are aware that there are places where people can drink booze at 18, right? I also don’t think you grasp what “Advocating” means. Advocating a change means - of course - that what you want to be the case is currently not the case, or else why would you be advocating for it? > [@](#): > > There are actual tragic stories of kids who can’t get aid because their parents aren’t destitute and kicked them out - the very situations are you waxing poetic on. That’s very unfortunate, and their parents should probably step up to the plate. I have no time or sympathy for asshole parents. I can think of lots of things people SHOULD do that I don’t think they should be forced to do by the government. I think people should tip generously, especially for busy breakfast places. I think you should always write nice thank you notes for gifts. I think people shouldn’t spank chiildren, smoke in their presence, smoke at all for that matter, or swear at their children. I think people should hold doors for each other, stand up to let pregnant women have a seat on the bus, and be generous of spirit in a million ways. I don’t see any reason to make those things law. > [@](#): > > There is a growing body of evidence as well that people’s brains grow (especially their ability to delay gratification) into their 20’s, yet the legal system randomly selected 18 and that’s supposed to be the final end to it all? Whatever the cutoff age is should be the cutoff age, yes. 18 seems like the best age to me and for most legal purposes it is the consensus pick. If you would like to suggest an alternative age, then by all means make your case, but IMHO it should be consistent and, yes, that means drinking, too. The USA’s prohibition on drinking before 21 is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/89 "2010-10-19T00:45:33Z")
I’ve even encountered people who think someone is a “child” until they’re 25. I tell ya, if your offspring is still a “child” at 25, it’s because you’ve kept them that way. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/90 "2010-11-30T00:06:10Z")
It sounds like Greg is pulling in a pretty great paycheck, if he is able to part with that much child support and not have significant financial hardships. So he should be buying the kids nice things that their mother can not or would not take, but will still enable them to have a “normal” childhood (as in, not appearing dirt poor in school). Laptops and ipods and cell phones, bad idea. Nice clothes and shoes and backpacks, hell yes. Maybe he could pay their school directly for school lunches (my old school system would let the parents put money directly into an account for lunches, and it wouldn’t be allowed to be withdrawn upon by another parent–especially if he explained the situation). Think of ways to give the kids things that the mother cannot also get her hands on. Don’t worry about what she does with the $2500–that cannot and will not be spent directly on Greg’s kids in this case anyway, considering the situation. Thinking about it will just give him ulcers. He should do everything he can to make sure the kids are enabled to lead a happy and productive life at school. Most kids who are exposed to daily poverty will not be able to focus in school, and will end up getting bad grades or turning to gang activity or drug use as a distraction from their shitty homelives. Kids who appear to be in poverty will be easy targets for bullying, which further distracts from learning. If he lives near the mother, he can offer to let them come over and hang out. He can offer to let them take showers at home if they don’t get them every day at her house (and should also document this for a judge). If he doesn’t, that rather complicates things. But I’m afraid that none of this has anything to do with you, OP. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/91 "2010-11-30T02:55:30Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > It sounds like Greg is pulling in a pretty great paycheck, if he is able to part with that much child support and not have significant financial hardships. This is not the case. His child support payment is over half of his take-home income, which leaves him with such a low amount to live on that he cannot afford rent on an average one-bedroom apartment in the DC-Metropolitan area where we live. So he can barely afford to support himself with what is left over, much less afford to give the kids “extras.” The $2,500 a month that he pays is his boys’ money, and should be going to give them a lifestyle commensurate with his income. However, since his Welfare Queen ex-wife has three more kids with an imprisoned felon, and who had never worked outside of the home a day in her life. Greg’s money is instead going to support 4 additional people, and his own children do not benefit from it. And there is not a damn thing Greg can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/92 "2010-11-30T03:05:46Z")
Ugh. This thread still burns me. He should be raising his kids, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/93 "2010-11-30T03:06:19Z")
> [@Bam Boo Gut](#): > > Sure, go ahead and live with your father - and let the rest of us starve. Don’t you love your little siblings? Don’t you appreciate what I’m doing for you? Isn’t life hard enough with their father in jail, if YOUR father hadn’t left me I’d never be in this situation etc etc. > > I bet Greg’s kids are getting all this and more. > [@Wile\_E](#): > > This is probably how the kids are being turned against their dad. If they choose to live with their dad the rest of the family will be out on the street. Mothers are great at guilt trips. It’s probably easier for the kids to avoid seeing dad so they don’t accidentally let this slip. > > The computers and iPod were probably sold by mom for extra money. If Greg wants to get the kids gifts he should give them stuff like clothes, shoes, backpacks and other school supplies. Mom could resell them but not for enough to make it worthwhile to deny kids something they need. > > I feel bad for the kids, I doubt college is in their futures. They will most likely get jobs as soon as they are old enough and feel obligated to support their younger siblings. Precisely. This is exactly what I think is going on. The oldest one, at least, probably understands that the money coming in from Greg is what runs the family, and he feels duty-bound to supporting his poor mother and siblings. I don’t know if I posted this before, but apparently Susan will be marrying her new boyfriend soon, who has 50% custody of his 4-year-old son, and who, at 34, has a just-above minimum-wage job. This new dude has written Greg an e-mail saying that he hopes him and Susan can have a baby together. Yes that’s right, they are working for child #8. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/94 "2010-11-30T03:09:34Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Ugh. This thread still burns me. He should be raising his kids, plain and simple. I agree. I think I mentioned above that Greg has spent scores of thousands of dollars to try to get custody. The court-appointed therapist spent 10 months doing a custody study and came back saying that Greg should not have custody because the boys are too attached to their mother, and also the boys stated to the therapist that not only do they not want to ever visit Greg, but they _don’t even want to talk to him on the phone_. This was like a knife to the heart. These kids have been successfully brainwashed by Susan. ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/95 "2010-11-30T03:18:00Z")
I agree… my blood pressure goes up just thinking about it. What a wretched situation for all involved. All Greg can do, really… is just put up with it and try not to put a bunch of negativity onto the children. Eventually he’ll win out. They’re not dummies, and they WILL appreciate his efforts. It’ll take years, though. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/96 "2010-11-30T03:19:40Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > [Here is a background thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=515682) about why Susan’s second husband is in prison. In a nutshell, he was found guilty of lewd and lascivious acts with a child under 14 (or, he molested the 13-year-old daughter of family friends). > > Although it’s not really relevant to the question at hand, I thought you might be interested. Previous threads are linked in that thread too. Slight hijack, but I wanted to share the latest on the child-molesting stepfather (CMS)… As I may have mentioned in prior threads, when Susan was married to CMS, they had a series of female teenage foreign exchange students. They did this for three years. They would have 2 girls at a time stay in their house, and they were usually about 16 years old. You can see where this is going… I always had a feeling that CMS may have done something to one of the foreign exchange students. I mean, a guy who is bold enough to sexually assault the 13-year-old daughter of friends would probably be likely to try something with the teen girls living under his own roof. Well just in the past month, we became aware that one of the students has come forward with allegations that CMS raped her at least twice, both times late at night after Susan and the children were asleep, in the kitchen and living room of their home, just feet from where Susan and the kids were sleeping. The teen was too scared to tell at the time, presumably because she knew how much Susan needed her husband, but has come forward now since CMS is in prison and Susan is divorcing him. I have no idea if any criminal charges will be pursued, since the student lives overseas. But it is just very disturbing to know that Greg’s kids were living in a house where their stepfather was raping their exchange student. It’s truly sickening. I also cannot help but think that on some level, Susan ignored her husband’s behavior (such as frequent “tickling” and “teasing” of the teen girls, as claimed by the rape victim). She needed her husband too much to push back on his behavior. I think Susan was in major denial. She did not do what she needed to do to protect the girls living in her home. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/97 "2010-11-30T03:26:22Z")
> [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > I agree… my blood pressure goes up just thinking about it. What a wretched situation for all involved. > > All Greg can do, really… is just put up with it and try not to put a bunch of negativity onto the children. Eventually he’ll win out. They’re not dummies, and they WILL appreciate his efforts. It’ll take years, though. The thing is, I am not convinced. Like I have read here on The Dope, many stories of adult children who have no contact with their fathers, because their fathers were not in their lives. Will the boys be smart enough to realize that their dad was there, by financially supporting them, and working for years to get custody? Or will they grow up believing the lies that Susan tells them? I don’t trust that they will be able to see the truth unbiased. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/98 "2010-11-30T03:31:37Z")
Well, it’s all hinged on one thing: so-called “experts” deciding things. A “social worker” is code for “someone too dumb to major in English”. How the fuck did she discern that seven children without either adult working is a healthy situation? Or with one in the goddamn slammer? There should be a common sense panel of people with above-average intelligence who would gather, hear the cases and point out “yeah, kids belong with dad. Because, you know, he makes money and isn’t a loser”. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/99 "2010-11-30T03:35:23Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > The thing is, I am not convinced. Like I have read here on The Dope, many stories of adult children who have no contact with their fathers, because their fathers were not in their lives. Will the boys be smart enough to realize that their dad was there, by financially supporting them, and working for years to get custody? Or will they grow up believing the lies that Susan tells them? I don’t trust that they will be able to see the truth unbiased. Well, they DO live in a household where there are multiple fathers. The best of the lot is obviously THEIR dad. He supports them (and by proxy, the rest of their household) and the other dads don’t. I think when they reach the “Age of Questioning Authority” when they’re about oh, 15 or so… they’ll start realizing things. And maybe they’ll seek him out for help with college, or when they need a hand up in some other way that their mother could never help with. I really don’t think the situation is hopeless. (It does, of course, seriously suck ass.) ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217/100 "2010-11-30T03:43:43Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Incidentally, it’s very difficult to make the argument that people are adults at 18 when it is hard, even impossible to sign a lease regardless of income at 18 and most definitely illegal to drink alcohol. You can however join the military, vote, get married and will be prosecuted as an adult, not as a child at eighteen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-on-the-fairness-of-child-support-being-used-to-support-people-other-than-the-children/557217.md?page=6)