# Discussion question: is The American Experiment a failure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036 "2023-06-24T13:09:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/221 "2023-06-29T19:54:12Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Instead what we get is backsliding and descents into outright fascism, which it takes us decades to repair. That ain’t progress. It’s staying stuck where we were, and “where we were” sucks. Politics doesn’t pay enough and is easy to exploit so it attracts criminals and hucksters. There is no real way to combat that in our broken system. People who rah-rah America are practicing a form of jingo-ism. Rather than embracing the global economy, for example, they only buy American Made - on principal alone. We are not the best, and we are on the way down as long this kind of shit keeps up. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/222 "2023-06-29T20:37:38Z")
Moderating: > [@slicedalone](#): > > When we end up on that famous ashheap, will you admit that you were completely wrong, and beg me to accept your apology? You’ve stepped over the line again into personal attacks. This is a warning for failing to heed moderator instructions to stop personally attacking other posters in your discussions. You are also directed to stay out of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/223 "2023-06-29T22:12:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > From that standpoint, it seemed mostly successful, and many other countries copied and improved on that success. > > OTOH, other countries copied _ **and improved** _ on that success. We haven’t really done _improvement_ part of that as much. I’m curious about the countries you think have improved. When I read about other countries - _The Economist_ is one good source, I think - I see problems and failures everywhere. In particular, immigration is creating enormous prejudices and the rise of extreme right-wing parties across western Europe. Eastern Europe has a plethora of fascists. India is mired in officially sanctioned religious bigotry and so are other South Asian countries. Japan? Women have never achieved equality. The UK is in a miserable downward spiral. Scotland and New Zealand saw women step down as leaders because of harassment. Canada is superficially nice but its treatment of First Nation peoples take it out of the running. Who’s left? What’s your definition of improvement? What have they done that’s not applicable to the U.S.? Remember, every thing - every single thing I can think of - is societally better today than it was in the 19th century. That should at least tie us in the improvement race. That nothing is perfect is not a disqualification. Nothing is perfect anywhere at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/224 "2023-06-29T22:39:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’ve always taken the original idea of the American Experiment to be an experiment in political structure, not about egalitarianism or civil rights. The question was, could a democracy be a stable form of governance? If the Gettysburg Address has been explicitly referred to in this thread, I don’t remember it, but it has been at the back of my mind all along; and it seems to me that what Abraham Lincoln was talking about was one reasonable interpretation of the “American Experiment’s” success or failure. > [@](#): > > Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. > > Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. > … > …that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/225 "2023-06-30T00:07:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’m curious about the countries you think have improved. When I read about other countries - _The Economist_ is one good source, I think - I see problems and failures everywhere. Perhaps a good starting point for comparison is the democracy index, from the Economist as well. To the extent it’s a reasonable gauge, Canada and Australia might be good answers. “Full democracies,” whatever their flaws or past sins, would seem to be an improvement over “flawed democracies” such as our own. Remember, “improvement” is a relative term and the more successful nation needn’t have achieved some ideal state. > **[The Economist Democracy Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index)** > > The Democracy Index published by the Economist Group is an index measuring the quality of democracy across the world. This quantitative and comparative assessment is centrally concerned with democratic rights and democratic institutions. The methodology for assessing democracy used in this democracy index is according to Economist Intelligence Unit which is part of the Economist Group, a UK-based private company, which publishes the weekly newspaper The Economist. The index is based on 60 indic... ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/226 "2023-06-30T01:59:01Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > The USA used to be colonies and part of the British Empire. Slavery existed in the British Empire prior to the creation of the USA. Therefore the British Empire bears responsibility for slavery. They got rid of it too late and there should be no tolerance on this issue. …so the reason why slavery is still allowed to exist in America is because of the British Empire? You couldn’t, you know, just remove the exception? > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Therefore the British Empire was a failure, and consequently all commonwealths are also failures. The British Empire _was_ a failure. But that isn’t what this thread is about. And this isn’t analogous to the argument I’ve made in this thread. Because: > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > The above is IMO the sort of argument used to justify a failure narrative. If something can be a success or failure there need to be objective criteria in order to have any sort of meaningful discussion. Because I’ve provided a series of benchmarks. A series of benchmarks that were set long enough ago that it isn’t unfair to apply them to the question posed in the OP. Is it possible for a Government to be permanently maintained without privileged classes? Without a standing army? Without either hereditary or self-appointed rulers? Is the democratic principle of equal rights, general suffrage, and government by a majority, capable of being carried into practical operation, and that, too, over a large extent of country? I’ve answered those questions. The American Experiment (as defined by the writer of this editorial) has failed IMHO. America is still governed by privileged classes. It still has a standing army. It doesn’t have “hereditary rulers” as in a “King or Queen.” But it does have the Kennedy’s and the Clintons and the Bushes. It does have the [“Billionaire Class”](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/23/americas-billionaire-class-is-funding-anti-democratic-forces) that have a disproportionate influence on American society. It doesn’t have “self-appointed rulers.” But the next President of the United States is either going to be a Democrat or a Republican…and nobody else should even consider applying. And is the democratic principle of equal rights, general suffrage, and government by a majority, capable of being carried into practical operation, and that, too, over a large extent of country? My vote here is _no_. There are many US citizens who, for varying reasons, are denied the right to vote. And the electoral college and gerrymandering throws the “government by a majority” out the window. Whether I’ve made a strong case here that the American Experiment has failed is obviously open to debate. But at least _I’ve made a case_. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The placement of those commas is critical to the interpretation of the words. Isn’t it astonishing that the placement of those commas can be so _critical_ over a hundred years after this amendment was ratified. Because I’ve cited the ACLU. And they argue: > [@ACLU](#): > > From the moment they enter the prison gates, incarcerated people lose the right to refuse to work. This is because the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which protects against slavery and involuntary servitude, explicitly excludes from its reach those held in confinement due to a criminal conviction. The roots of modern prison labor can be found in the ratification of this exception clause at the end of the Civil War, which disproportionately encouraged the criminalization and effective re-enslavement of Black people during the Jim Crow era, with impacts that persist to this day. > > Today, more than 76 percent of incarcerated workers surveyed by the Bureau of Justice Statistics say that they are required to work or face additional punishment such as solitary confinement, denial of opportunities to reduce their sentence, and loss of family visitation. They have no right to choose what type of work they do and are subject to arbitrary, discriminatory, and punitive decisions by the prison administrators who select their work assignments. > **[Captive Labor: Exploitation of Incarcerated Workers | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/captive-labor-exploitation-of-incarcerated-workers)** > > We examined the injustices of prison labor nationwide — and lay the foundation for a more equitable path forward. In seven states incarcerated workers are not paid at all for most, if not all of their work. In other states they earn on average between 13 and 52 cents per hour. And then the government takes 80% of those wages for “room and board” and other costs. You can argue about “original intent” as much as you like. Slavery in America still exists, comma or not. America incarcerates more people per capita than anywhere else in the world. It isn’t even close. Most haven’t been convicted of a crime. You could release half of everyone currently locked up in America right now, and you would _still_ have twice as many people incarcerated per capita than they do in Australia. Its like: the constitution is nothing but a document written by long-dead-white-men. It’s treated as “sacred text.” You argue about “original intent.” But those prisoners are still being forced to work as what many consider as modern day slaves. The ACLU argues that the 13th Amendment allows this. But even if the ACLU are wrong on that point of law, those “modern day slaves” _still exist._ > [@University of Chicago Law School’s Global Human Rights Clinic](#): > > The exploitation of incarcerated workers is rooted in the “exception clause” to the 13th Amendment, which bars slavery _except for people who have been convicted of crimes_ . In many states—and in the United States Constitution—exception clauses allow for workers in prisons to be exploited, underpaid, and excluded from workplace safety protection laws. Worse, the exception clause in the 13th Amendment disproportionately encouraged the criminalization and re-enslavement of Black people during the Jim Crow era, and we still feel the impacts of this systemic racism to this day in the disproportionate incarceration of Black and Brown community members. > **[U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human rights, new report finds](https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds)** > > Law School’s Global Human Rights Clinic, ACLU examine coercion, exploitation in prison labor > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Scotland and New Zealand saw women step down as leaders because of harassment. Well, no, the Rt Hon Jacinda Adern stepped down because [“she didn’t have anything left in the tank.”](https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-resignation#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAs%20to%20my%20time%20in,go%2C%E2%80%9D%20Jacinda%20Ardern%20said.) She lead the country through crisis after crisis: the Mosque shootings, the Whakaari eruption, and lead a pandemic response that included an elimination strategy that essentially _rewrote the rulebook on everything worked here_ and had to do it in a matter of _weeks_. No Prime Minister in the history of the country have had to deal with that. There was a harassment. But that’s all part of a global destabilization campaign that, according to the Disinformation Project, [began to have significant impact here from August 2021](https://thedisinfoproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/2021-11-09-FINAL-working-paper-disinformation..pdf). And the harassment wasn’t a reason Adren gave for why she stood down. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > What have they done that’s not applicable to the U.S.? America locks people up at industrial levels. It can cost $4000 to have a baby. Abortion in many parts of America is banned. The Supreme Court is essentially accountable to nobody. The police are essentially accountable to nobody. These are the things that America is _exceptional_ at. And there is no real desire to change that at _any_ level. This is the _floor_. Nobody is arguing that the rest of the world is perfect. If you want to hear a list of exactly how we are failing here in New Zealand then I’ve got all day. But this thread is about “The American Experiment.” Is it a failure or not? I agree with you: they are better in many ways than they were in the 19th century. But _that isn’t the question_. Are the ideals that the founders memorialised in the constitution still being held up today? And, considering how unrepresentative the “founding fathers” were as a group, does that even matter any more? Why do the ideal of this group of long-dead-white-men matter more than the ideals of the Black people bought to America in chains? To the indigenous people chased off their lands? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/227 "2023-06-30T13:30:23Z")
**Moderating:** Modnote > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > We’ve taken more chances than you, are braver than you. You may choose to throw stones. I consider the source. There’s plenty I could throw back that way. I think you’re paraphrasing a quote, not sure. But this part of your post at least gives the strong appearance of attacking the poster and not the post. Please don’t do this. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/228 "2023-06-30T17:52:35Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Perhaps a good starting point for comparison is the democracy index, from the Economist as well. I’m aware of the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) - don’t know why Wiki uses a different name. If you look up democracy indexes on Google that’s about the only one you see. But academics use others. Each relies upon sometimes dramatically different criteria and produce dramatically different rankings. Here’s a gift article from the Washington Post. > **[How do you measure ‘democracy’?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/06/23/how-do-you-measure-democracy/)** > > Measuring a country’s level of democracy is crucial for understanding basic questions about politics. So why are the measures so bad? > Polity really cares about constraints on the elites – how much the president is checked by parliament, for example. … > > Freedom House, on the other hand, cares much more about individual rights and personal freedoms. Both give the U.S. the highest score. The EIU works very differently according to this gift article. > **[Analysis | Yes, our ‘flawed’ democracy just got downgraded. Here’s why.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/23/yes-our-flawed-democracy-just-got-downgraded-heres-why/)** > > Americans have less faith in their democratic institutions, according to democracy indexes. > Here’s the main reason for the U.S. downgrade to the category of flawed democracy — there was a drop in the levels of trust in political parties, elected representatives and governmental institutions. Trust is a far less objective indicator than evaluations of structure. (Not that those are perfectly free of subjectivity.) In the U.S. trust was shattered by 9/11 and the Iraq War response. Then the right started a deliberate campaign to remove trust in government when Obama was elected. Trump followed by casting doubt on all elections, even those he won. The left has a parallel loss of trust because of the responses to George Floyd and other police killings, a conservative Supreme Court, and gerrymandering, to name a few. Nevertheless, the U.S. does consistently get ranked lower than other western democracies. I’m genuinely curious about that. But only about structural issues, not the latest newspaper headlines. I’ll rail about problems, abuses, and inequities all day. But I don’t think those are baked into the system. They’re more like pustules that rise to the surface and torment. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/229 "2023-06-30T18:28:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Isn’t it astonishing that the placement of those commas can be so _critical_ over a hundred years after this amendment was ratified. Arguing over every comma is what lawyers do for a living. When the Constitution is involved, the stakes are higher and the consequences greater. There can never be an end. Tell me what a “well-regulated militia” means. One sentence is not arguable. Slavery is separate from involuntary servitude. The boundaries of the latter are endlessly brought to court, as in the link I gave earlier. The American prison system is a disgrace. Other than a few extreme right-wingers, everybody understands that. The Constitution says that the convicted may be jailed. It says nothing about treatment thereafter: that’s for legislation. Bad treatment, however heinous and however much it cries out for elimination, does not equate to slavery. The reason the Constitution is important is that it is the framework for all laws. I’ve argued that it is not law itself. Laws are what legislatures pass. (The Declaration of Independence is definitely **not** law: it was a piece of political propaganda. Worse, people cherrypick it as much as they do the Bible.) As soon as Congress was formed, the founders were hit in the face with the difference. Look up the [Alien and Sedition Acts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts). Today the tens of millions of words of federal and state laws and regulations and the hundreds of millions of words of court decisions look to the Constitution because it’s all they have in the end. The result has been thousands of very good and uplifting laws and thousands of very bad and repressive laws, not to mention millions of actions taken that are within the laws and yet may either be very good or societally destructive. America is not a country, and not fifty states. It is thousands of subunits, each with one or more bodies that can write and enforce laws. Virtually no national guidelines exist. Every other western country that I’m familiar with creates a set of national guidelines for schools, for police, for language, for measures, for driving. Those are unthinkable in the U.S. Whenever Congress tries to pass national standards, the furor is as much local interests as political parties. This is also part of the American core as implicitly set out in the Constitution. I keep arguing that the U.S. is unique. (Unique is not equal to “good” or to “bad.”) That’s hard to see from the outside because no other country has this structure; you have to live in it to grasp how history has created this tangle of individuality. It’s a lot easier to see the pustules, even for Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/230 "2023-07-01T01:23:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Arguing over every comma is what lawyers do for a living. When the Constitution is involved, the stakes are higher and the consequences greater. There can never be an end. Tell me what a “well-regulated militia” means. …“there can never be an end” is something that is extremely _telling_ here. I actually think that there should be a definitive end to slavery. There should be a definitive end to involuntary servitude. And if the positioning of a comma written by people that have been dead for over a hundred years means we are still arguing whether or not the slavery that is happening in prisons is allowable under the law…then just change the law already. Amend the amendment. But that won’t happen. Because this is all part of the “American Experiment.” And that experiment has been a failure. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The American prison system is a disgrace. Other than a few extreme right-wingers, **everybody understands that**. The Constitution says that the convicted may be jailed. It says nothing about treatment thereafter: that’s for legislation. [![](https://i.imgflip.com/2t3p62.jpg) ](https://i.imgflip.com/2t3p62.jpg) Do most Americans really understand how fucked-up and dystopian the prisons are in your country? I don’t think they do. You lock up more people per capita than anywhere else in the world and…nobody really gives a shit? The majority of people haven’t even been convicted of a crime and…nobody really cares? When DA Chesa Boudin was recalled it was primarily because he was on a "[mission is to reform the American criminal justice system and reduce incarceration rates"](https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018745806/chesa-boudin-progressive-da-and-de-carceration-advocate). His policies were blamed for “rising crime.” In “progressive” New York, the Democrat Mayor Eric Adams is [actively](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-18/nyc-wins-delay-in-push-for-federal-intervention-at-rikers-jail) [fighting](https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2023/05/timeline-closure-rikers-island/376662/) against reform at Rikers. I would argue that the overwhelming majority of Americans don’t really understand what a disgrace the American prison system is at all. They have no idea that they are locking so many people up, that so many of them haven’t been convicted of a crime, the degree that the schools-to-prison pipeline means that many marginalised folk never ever even get a chance. Politicians are petrified of being called “soft on crime.” Its all part of a vicious propaganda circle. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Bad treatment, however heinous and however much it cries out for elimination, does not equate to slavery. “Bad treatment” is really doing a lot of work here. We aren’t talking about prisoners not getting bacon for breakfast or having to turn the television off after midnight. We are talking about [26 inmates crammed into a cell meant for a single person.](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/10/new-york-post-photos-show-horrific-overcrowding-at-rikers.html) [6% of the US prison population](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-report-reveals-122k-are-held-solitary-confinement-us-prisons-jails-rcna84840) is in [solitary confinement](https://afsc.org/solitary-confinement-facts) at any one time. Prisons are often cruel and sadistic. And of course there is Angola. > [@Innocence Project](#): > > Malcolm Alexander was 20 years old when he was taken from his family and sent to pick cotton in the fields of Angola. > > … > > Only Malcolm had not been taken by slave traders from a home thousands of miles away. He’d been taken from Jefferson Parish, a mere three-hour car ride away, and brought to Angola to work and live out the rest of his life due to an egregious error in the criminal legal system. And the year was not 1780 — when slave ships regularly brought people abducted from Africa to be sold in the South — it was 1980. > **[How the 13th Amendment Kept Slavery Alive: Perspectives From the Prison Where...](https://innocenceproject.org/news/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-slavery-alive-perspectives-from-the-prison-where-slavery-never-ended/)** [![](https://innocenceproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/AP_01090602770-1536x1016.jpg) ](https://innocenceproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/AP_01090602770-1536x1016.jpg) You are entitled to your opinion that this doesn’t equate to slavery. I hold a different opinion. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > America is not a country, and not fifty states. It is thousands of subunits, each with one or more bodies that can write and enforce laws. Virtually no national guidelines exist. Every other western country that I’m familiar with creates a set of national guidelines for schools, for police, for language, for measures, for driving. Those are unthinkable in the U.S. Whenever Congress tries to pass national standards, the furor is as much local interests as political parties. This is also part of the American core as implicitly set out in the Constitution. And here is the _crux_ of the “American Experiment.” The thing that sets it apart from the rest of the world. We can _test_ this. There are over 14,000 different police agencies that exist in America. How’s that working out for you? President Biden argued that you shouldn’t _defund_ the police. You should _reform_ the police. What exactly is the plan to reform 14,000 different police agencies? Do you think this that part of the American core that is implicitly set out in the Constitution can ever be fixed? Or is what it is right now how it will always continue to be? I’ve argued on these boards that you can’t reform the police in America. And the reasons why you can’t reform them is for all of the reason you spell out here. It would go against everything that Americans consider to be their core. This is the end result of the experiment. There might be some incremental improvement in some places. But this is probably as good as you ever will get. And with a corrupt, entrenched Supreme Court (that again, is part of that core) rewriting the rulebook as we speak, I can easily imagine things getting worse. The experiment, in my eyes, has been a failure. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > That’s hard to see from the outside because no other country has this structure; you have to live in it to grasp how history has created this tangle of individuality. It’s a lot easier to see the pustules, even for Americans. You are mistaken here. From the outside, we can see the dysfunction quite clearly. We don’t have to “live in it” to grasp just how entirely broken the system is. Its why I can confidentially state that I consider the American Experiment to be a failure, and short of a revolution, nothing is ever going to change. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/231 "2023-07-01T05:55:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > America is not a country, and not fifty states. It is thousands of subunits, each with one or more bodies that can write and enforce laws. Virtually no national guidelines exist. Every other western country that I’m familiar with creates a set of national guidelines for schools, for police, for language, for measures, for driving. (And the conduct of elections…) That’s the thing I’m still in the process of grasping - the federal/state divide was easy to understand, but the range of powers and consequent differences of different sub-units I hadn’t appreciated. But I did notice just how much, by comparison, is the subject of what to me looks like micromanagement by legislatures rather than executive/administrative guidelines on the application of statute law. And 14000 police agencies? The mind boggles. Not that we and other countries don’t have our own faults and institutional issues, of course. But, perhaps, if we want to beat ourselves up about it, we frame it differently. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/232 "2023-07-01T13:23:11Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > And 14000 police agencies? The mind boggles. …I wrote the wrong number for some reason, my apologies. It’s very much worse: it’s 17,985 police agencies in the United States. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Law%20enforcement%20operates%20primarily%20through,and%20federal%20law%20enforcement%20agencies.). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/233 "2023-07-01T14:44:12Z")
Ultimately, our Constitution gives a lot of power to localities, and thereby enshrines a right to be as ignorant and backwards as is locally popular. And with as little government as low-density low-income environments can afford. The constitution prizes limited government and personal autonomy over any / all notions of civil society-building. It seems like a great system for a thinly populated wilderness in an era of little wealth, little communication, and little education. It seems a poorly crafted system for a heavily populated urban industrial society in an era of great wealth, great communication, and little education. sic. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/234 "2023-07-01T14:47:27Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > pinning all this hatred onto the US is sort of disingenuous There’s never really been a shortage anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/235 "2023-07-01T14:49:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > short of a revolution, nothing is ever going to change Except that revolutions rarely if ever change anything about the culture, and it’s the culture we are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/236 "2023-07-01T14:50:59Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Except that revolutions rarely if ever change anything about the culture, and it’s the culture we are talking about. …then nothing is ever going to change. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/237 "2023-07-01T15:41:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …then nothing is ever going to change. Oh things change all right. Usually because of technology/economics. For example women’s rights didn’t really get a lot of traction until the birth control pill. Rural white guys were grudgingly accepting of advances by others until their factory jobs were outsourced, family farming was destroyed, and with 80% of people living in cities and their outskirts, their way of life became alien and inconsequential. People may aspire to the American Experiment but only after their own needs for respect, decent jobs, and supportive communities are met. Lacking those, they cast around for someone vulnerable to blame. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/238 "2023-07-01T18:42:36Z")
Superbly said @Ulfreida. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/239 "2023-07-02T00:35:40Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > For example women’s rights didn’t really get a lot of traction until the birth control pill. …this is an example of that “incremental change” that I’m talking about. Sure. Women’s rights got a lot of traction after the birth control pill. But right now, 14 states have banned abortion. So swings and roundabouts here. And we know that they are coming after contraception next. And gay marriage. And trans people. And so while everyone fights over these big, important issues, the police still get their billions of funding and continue to do their thing largely without any real oversight. The schools-to-prison industrial machine continues unabated. America will still lock up more people per capita than any where else in the world. Americans will still be paying essentially twice as much as the rest of the modern world for healthcare for average treatment not accessible by everyone. This is the _norm_. This is the _floor_. This is the _status quo_. All of this is the result of the “American Experiment.” “Pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” “Land of the free, home of the brave.” “Every person for themselves.” There is _no fixing this._ Because the moment anyone steps out-of-line, they get pilloried and punished. Again, I put it to you, just picking a singular example, what is the realistic, viable plan for “reforming the police?” Short of a revolution, how do you put a stop to [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department_corruption_and_misconduct)? Or [this](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/la-sheriff-department-gangs-alex-villanueva-1234691873/)? Or [this](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blows-overtime-budget-by-nearly-100-million-on-pace-for-record)? The local politicians are largely complicit here. The NYPD basically has the Mayor in their pocket. And the Mayor is a Democrat! And when the Mayor isn’t especially favourable to them they do stuff like [this](https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twitter-1843813751). They _own_ the city. Lets talk about prisons. [https://uc0b5c3ef2cd728fcfd656318e56.previews.dropboxusercontent.com/p/thumb/AB\_SYFKAk2MmRd7-jwKhtgCVp-ifiQrlZK5DkZxYYJOzx492zK4\_PbAo6DXXvwkG5ez8d16bL1GKPiTsHq1KZMXJ494L7L59SIpYE7MhxSEaSPDy2J3DPG6UOkXLYZzBHD0VEsWWWBeZDHssDWMUpS7F2oMnQzc6NJZtV\_6f0wGgpB7sRvOSJbN7nH61P83tM1Xffztwp66rTxnuOk7nlIu3stvSVbDHRi61lJoInYqBxDnhY0KO40byMmyiesXkeMuPX3tcpxLaVWNw5FUUU3RTa700MrjwU2e0dIdPn2zBVMd2QMbHr-zL6Tr926LiuVq0L69leyop-C6DWg5LLeb0142v4cmO-bbfSN64UP9\_LQ/p.png](https://uc0b5c3ef2cd728fcfd656318e56.previews.dropboxusercontent.com/p/thumb/AB_SYFKAk2MmRd7-jwKhtgCVp-ifiQrlZK5DkZxYYJOzx492zK4_PbAo6DXXvwkG5ez8d16bL1GKPiTsHq1KZMXJ494L7L59SIpYE7MhxSEaSPDy2J3DPG6UOkXLYZzBHD0VEsWWWBeZDHssDWMUpS7F2oMnQzc6NJZtV_6f0wGgpB7sRvOSJbN7nH61P83tM1Xffztwp66rTxnuOk7nlIu3stvSVbDHRi61lJoInYqBxDnhY0KO40byMmyiesXkeMuPX3tcpxLaVWNw5FUUU3RTa700MrjwU2e0dIdPn2zBVMd2QMbHr-zL6Tr926LiuVq0L69leyop-C6DWg5LLeb0142v4cmO-bbfSN64UP9_LQ/p.png) Just how do you fix this? Why does America lock up so many people? And more importantly, why does nobody even talk about this? This is what I would expect to see from an authoritarian nation. But America is the “leader of the free world.” The “shining beacon of democracy.” Are Americans fundamentally more likely to be criminal? Or is there something else going on here? And if you never even treat this as a problem, if both political parties (in a two party state) are always talking about “law and order” and “punishing criminals” then what hope do you ever have of even addressing this? Its why I argue that, short of a revolution, this will never be fixed. You are too far gone. This is the end result of the American Experiment. This is what happens when a bunch of long-dead-white-men create a framework for society centuries ago that is treated today like a sacred tome with an almost cult-like intensity. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/240 "2023-07-02T00:38:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is what happens when a bunch of long-dead-white-men create a framework for society centuries ago that is treated today like a sacred tome with an almost cult-like intensity. Which parts of the Constitution should we repeal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036.md?page=13)