# Discussion question: is The American Experiment a failure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036 "2023-06-24T13:09:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/262 "2023-07-02T23:09:31Z")
We’re working on it. It may take 10 years or 100 or 1000 (or it may never happen), but what can we do besides do our best to fix things? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/263 "2023-07-02T23:15:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’re working on it. …the argument I’m making in this thread is that this is it. This is the end result of the experiment. Sure, keep working on it. But it won’t materially make any difference. Because you can’t “fix things” unless you get some consensus on what needs to be fixed. And as long as the Democrats are firmly on the side of “fund the police”, “oppose serious bail reform”, “not doing anything about the Supreme Court”, then this is it. This is what you get. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/264 "2023-07-02T23:27:27Z")
We’ll I personally don’t think immigrants and multiculturalism caused America to fail. I will accept, however, that some people think it has. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/265 "2023-07-02T23:32:31Z")
If everyone has your attitude then there’s no hope. Progress requires optimism, and thus I choose to be optimistic. The alternative is giving up any effort at trying. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/266 "2023-07-02T23:59:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And as long as the Democrats are firmly on the side of “fund the police”, “oppose serious bail reform”, “not doing anything about the Supreme Court”, then this is it. 1. I still, after all this time, don’t know what it means to “fund” or “defund” the police. I keep imagining Officer Joe Friday not getting his paycheck at the end of the month. 2. Bail reform is a work in progress. [https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/fate-bail-reform-illinois](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/fate-bail-reform-illinois) 3. Do you really see Democrats as being firmly on the side of not doing anything about the Supreme Court? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/267 "2023-07-03T00:14:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If everyone has your attitude then there’s no hope. …I’m simply calling it as I see it. What would you prefer I do? You want me to tell you that “I think it will get better?” Because I don’t. Progress requires much more than optimism. It requires _action_. It requires _commitment_. It requires _political will and power_. It requires you to be _realistic_. Don’t shoot the messenger. I’m not telling you to give up. I’m pleading with you to _prove me wrong_. I’m begging you to not give up, because Black people and American Indians and indigenous folks and trans people and the unhoused and the undocumented…they all need you to not stop fighting. My message is the same as its been for a while. I think that you have to do everything that you can to hold the line. Biden needs to win the next election. You need to hold the senate. You need to win back the house. You need to do something about the supremes. You need to get out and fight every single election, from the local sheriff to city council to the school boards. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I still, after all this time, don’t know what it means to “fund” or “defund” the police. I keep imagining Officer Joe Friday not getting his paycheck at the end of the month. It means stopping things like this. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blows-overtime-budget-by-nearly-100-million-on-pace-for-record](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blows-overtime-budget-by-nearly-100-million-on-pace-for-record) Police overtime is a _literal_ scam. _[Collars for dollars](https://amsterdamnews.com/news/2020/05/21/no-more-collars-dollars/)_. Police budgets are out of control. Police departments are out of control. Here is AOC explaining exactly what defund means: > [@AOC](#): > > Asked, “What does an America with defunded police look like to you?” Ocasio-Cortez responded, “It looks like a suburb.” > > “Affluent white communities already live in a world where the choose to fund youth, health, housing etc more than they fund police,” Ocasio-Cortez explained. "When a teenager or preteen does something harmful in a suburb (I say teen bc this is often where lifelong carceral cycles begin for Black and Brown communities), White communities bend over backwards to find alternatives to incarceration for their loved ones to ‘protect their future,’ like community service or rehab or restorative measures. Why don’t we treat Black and Brown people the same way? > **[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Was Asked About Defunding the Police and Her Answer...](https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/media/in-the-news/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-was-asked-about-defunding-police-and-her-answer-went)** > >   > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Bail reform is a work in progress. > [The Fate of Bail Reform in Illinois | Brennan Center for Justice](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/fate-bail-reform-illinois) > [@your cite](#): > > Now the Illinois Supreme Court has stepped in and [blocked](https://apnews.com/article/politics-illinois-state-government-legal-proceedings-lawsuits-b310c3f68a1abed94fd71a0709d34df2) the implementation of the bail provisions, leaving [thousands of people](https://loyolaccj.org/pfa/blog/pfa-jail) in jail who would have been eligible for release. I’m not arguing that bail reform isn’t a work in progress. I’m pointing out that without a serious commitment to not only bail reform, but an overhaul of the entire system, including things like plea-bargins, as well as getting the general public to buy-in, then we aren’t going to see any change to the prison population. America will still be locking up people at industrial levels. Because for most Americans, this isn’t something _they even know about_, let alone _care_ about. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Do you really see Democrats as being firmly on the side of not doing anything about the Supreme Court? What are the Democrats doing about the Supreme Court? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/268 "2023-07-03T00:15:53Z")
How can anyone know what lies in the long run future? I mean sure, things don’t look good now, but nobody knows what the situation will be 50, 100, 1000 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/269 "2023-07-03T00:28:14Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > How can anyone know what lies in the long run future? …how long do you allow an experiment to run before you declare a result? I think the American experiment has been a failure. I’ve laid out my reasons for that in this thread. I think that if things _do_ get better, it won’t be because of a strict adherence to everything that allegedly “made America Great.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/270 "2023-07-03T00:30:06Z")
I’m saying that optimism is not sufficient on its own, but it is necessary. Without optimism, there’s no hope at all. With optimism plus a bunch of other things, there’s a chance to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/271 "2023-07-03T00:33:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m saying that optimism is not sufficient on its own, but it is necessary. …if you want optimism, then perhaps a Great Debate thread discussing “is the American Experiment a failure” is the wrong place to look for it. My position remains unchanged. I think it _has_ been a failure. I’ve explained why. I’m not going to change my position just because you don’t think I’m being optimistic enough. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/272 "2023-07-03T00:37:17Z")
But you said you want us to keep trying. If you want us to keep trying, then you have some optimism in you. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/273 "2023-07-03T00:39:48Z")
Note: this post was started a couple of hours ago and got interrupted. The answer was given dozens of times in this thread alone. American society is better now than at any previous time in history. Therefore, progress can be made. How? Glibly speaking, don’t vote Republican. Progress has always come from liberals and never from conservatives. Giving in to their nonsense is certain failure. Saying we’re fucked and throwing up your hands is worse than cherrypicking the evils and not acknowledging any of the gains. Less glibly speaking, learn from history. (History always provides delicious ironies. The Constitution has numerous provisions that made the American penal system _better_ than the British penal system it was breaking away from.) In my lifetime a thousand battles have been fought and won, many of them huge. The world of today is inestimably superior to the world of 1950 I entered. I got bored of the “we’re all fucked” mentality fifty years ago. Isn’t the motto of this fucking site “it’s taking longer than we thought?” ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/274 "2023-07-03T00:45:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …how long do you allow an experiment to run before you declare a result? In this case? Forever. I’m dead serious. As a corollary, IMO the OP has no answer. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/275 "2023-07-03T00:48:48Z")
**Moderating:** Just a nudge, I’m seeing too much “you” and that leads to needing real moderating. Please lets make this less personal. In particular, lets drop the specific appeals to **Banquet\_Bear**. It looks almost like badgering at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/276 "2023-07-03T00:54:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > it’s taking longer than we thought Several times I’ve been tempted to drop that into this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/277 "2023-07-03T00:59:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > . If you want us to keep trying, then you have some optimism in you. …optimism is _relative_. If you don’t fight, if Biden loses to Trump, if they lose the senate, lose the house, its all fucking over. How long have Black people been in this fight? Have indigenous folk? Have the LGBTQ+ community? They’ve _never_ given up the fight. They’ve had big wins. And many losses. But they keep fighting, even though the system is _broken_. If you don’t keep trying: then the worst case scenario is _genocide_. I don’t think that’s the endgame here. I don’t think that’s where it ends. But those are the stakes. > [@suranyi](#): > > In this case? Forever. I’m dead serious. Then it isn’t an experiment. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Glibly speaking, don’t vote Republican. The Democrat Governor of New York and the Democrat Mayor of New York oppose serious bail reform, support the NYPD, are dragging their feet on fixing Rikers. It isn’t enough to just say “don’t vote Republican.” That isn’t going to fix any of the things I’ve talked about in this thread. It just stops things from getting exponentially worse. Not voting Republican is just the starting point. You also need to be holding Democrat politicians to account. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Isn’t the motto of this fucking site “it’s taking longer than we thought?” This thread is a Great Debate titled “is the American Experiment a failure.” My answer to that is…yes, it is. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Several times I’ve been tempted to drop that into this thread. I mean, it’s been centuries already. I think its okay to make a judgement at this stage on whether or not we think the experiment has been a success of a failure. We can see how it all ended up. This is it. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/278 "2023-07-03T01:05:21Z")
History provides some apt quotations here. Galileo’s (probably apocryphal) “But it does move” wins. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/279 "2023-07-03T01:10:27Z")
‘It’s been ten-thousand-fucking-years and all you’ve accomplished is mastering fire, starting agriculture, and inventing the wheel. Clearly the human experiment is a failure!’ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/280 "2023-07-03T01:21:02Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Clearly the human experiment is a failure!’ …but nobody is calling it “the human experiment.” This thread is about _the American Experiment_. It’s a phrase that is in common parlance, and its what this debate is all about. Has the framework set up by the “founding fathers” achieved what they set out to achieve? Has it worked for everyone? Is the America of today maintained without privileged classes? Is the democratic principle of equal rights, general suffrage, and government by a majority, capable of being carried into practical operation, and that, too, over a large extent of country? I don’t think its wrong to ask those questions. I don’t think its wrong to say “I don’t think its worked.” I don’t think its wrong to consider the consequences of staying the course. I don’t think its wrong to think that maybe there is a better way of doing things. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/281 "2023-07-03T01:21:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Then it isn’t an experiment. Indeed, it isn’t a real experiment, it’s a metaphorical experiment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036.md?page=15)