# Discussion question: is The American Experiment a failure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036 "2023-06-24T13:09:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/21 "2023-06-24T15:08:15Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The primary question that is begged here is what _ **is** _ the “American Experiment”. And then what is the metric of failure or success – and after that whether the answer is to be: “is failing” or “has failed”. Shorthand: _E pluribus unum,_ i.e., “Out of many, one.” Am I allowed to quote my OP? I feel like people show up and post without having read it, and that post contains the question I’m raising, to wit: > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > …how do you create a unified society and government to manage so many different backgrounds of all kinds? > > To me there are two ways: > > 1. A completely totalitarian dictatorship (which is not what the founders wanted). > 2. An extremely (unrealistically) enlightened general population that can “live and let live.” It’s the very diversity that we are proud of and brag about (“The Melting Pot”) that is the fundamental reason that we cannot all get along. TOO many different backgrounds, ethnic identities, religious differences, differences in values, and NO umbrella that everyone will agree to peacefully and respectfully co-exist under. The effect is multiplied by _instant media and communication,_ which is the curse and the blessing of modern life. Small rebellious, ignorant, destructive pockets of people can now find other like-minded anarchists and band together pretty darned fast. What is missing is what I believe is the key to harmonious relations whether in families, marriages, or nations, namely **The Assumption of Good Will,** which I define as beginning with the assumption that the other person (parent, child, employer, spouse) _does not wish you harm._ In our society today there are chips on many many shoulders-- just look at the investigations and lawsuits named in headlines every day. Okay, I’m getting depressed writing this… I’m glad I’m old and will be dead soon. I feel sorry for y’all who have children and grandchildren. I can only hope that there will be a huge backlash at some point and civility will once again be fashionable. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/22 "2023-06-24T15:11:58Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > What is missing is what I believe is the key to harmonious relations whether in families, marriages, or nations, namely **The Assumption of Good Will,** which I define as beginning with the assumption that the other person (parent, child, employer, spouse) _does not wish you harm._ In our society today there are chips on many many shoulders-- just look at the investigations and lawsuits named in headlines every day. The headlines are not a random, unbiased sample of America. The assumption of good will still exists, but the instances where it breaks down get all the publicity. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/23 "2023-06-24T15:18:15Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > …the instances where it breaks down get all the publicity. You mean like in Congress? 🧐 ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/24 "2023-06-24T15:24:25Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > …how do you create a unified society and government to manage so many different backgrounds of all kinds? But _ **was** _ that the point? Or did we _retcon_ it? especially the “society AND government” part. The USA was founded under the premise of a federal state being organized by/for “We the _[white, male, adult, Christian, literate, land-owning]_ People” under the principles of the Enlightenment. Originalist Justices would tell us, the Founders did not set out to create a new _society_ except insofar as replacing hereditary titling with “merit” (meaning wealth creation/accumulation), otherwise the participation of “others” has always been under a sometimes explicit, sometimes implicit, premise that “you are welcomed here, but know your place”. The rest of that post is spot on, though. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/25 "2023-06-24T15:25:03Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > This is the second time you’ve thrown in a pithy remark Thanks for that. I have trouble counting to two sometimes. My point, if you really require aid in understanding it, is that even defenders of the status quo need to qualify their weak assertions with "quite"s and such–even they can’t muster a full-throated defense of the failed American Experiment as a success. I find that more telling than my criticisms would be. We are a mess, and obdurately refusing to acknowledge that painful truth is the clearest sign of the mess we’re in up to our necks. And maybe beyond. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/26 "2023-06-24T15:37:15Z")
That is a VERY perceptive point! Must ponder… I think you’re right, that the FF\* did not picture everyone sitting at the table as equals, in spite of the Enlightenment language in our founding documents. They knew that you can’t get this many different oars in the water at the same time and expect the boat to do anything except go in circles until the rowers get fed up and beat each other to death with their oars. * * * * * * \*Founding Fathers ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/27 "2023-06-24T15:38:19Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Back in April of 1861, we started shooting each other in the face because a bunch of states decided preserving slavery was more important than keeping the nation whole. As bad as Trump is, we’ve been worse off in the past and managed to come through it. I think we’ll survive Trump and his ilk. I think that this argument is incredibly corrosive and why we are collapsing. There is this belief, especially among white boomers that we’ll be fine because they just want it to be true. Essentially, the American Experiment is a bedtime story white boomers tell each other so they can keep kicking the can down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/28 "2023-06-24T15:45:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > think we’re doing great, and I figure we’re on the brink of getting even better. Are you Candide redivivus? The answer is there has always been a belief in white people that our better natures were ascendant. It has only been shared by those whom white people allowed to be almost as good as themselves – whitish immigrants from Not-England, mainly. Everyone else knew the truth, that the Experiment was created by and for whites. Really, for white men. The proof is when not white and not men people start asking how that experiment’s coming along. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/29 "2023-06-24T15:47:33Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Are you Candide? Rather the opposite. I think America should’ve wised up after Nixon, and doubly so once Ford pardoned Nixon; and I think America should’ve done plenty of it since. But now, _finally,_ it looks like America is getting there. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/30 "2023-06-24T15:47:43Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Are you Candide? Or maybe Canadian? Because that works, too. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/31 "2023-06-24T15:48:33Z")
As I approach the “EXIT” end of my ride, I find I’m much more pessimistic than I was when I was closer to the “ENTRANCE” end. In my youth, I was all “Yeah! Gotta revolution! Gotta revolution!” as a remedy for all the cultural and social ills around me, but now I see that no substantial progress has been made, particularly in the diminishment of the presence of open racists in mainstream American values. I would say that in the past 50 years, they have gotten bolder and more open about their retrograde values. In my younger days, it was unthinkable that any POTUS could show the slightest empathy towards the Klansmen demonstrating at Charlottesville. Now it’s not only thinkable, but we’re about to renominate that POTUS. I give us an “F” (for “Fuck, yeah, we’re a failure.”) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/32 "2023-06-24T15:55:34Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Or maybe Canadian? Because that works, too. snert ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/33 "2023-06-24T15:56:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But now, _finally,_ it looks like America is getting there. Cites? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/34 "2023-06-24T16:02:02Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Cites? For what, precisely? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/35 "2023-06-24T16:05:30Z")
> [@solost](#): > > So, do I think the ‘American Experiment’ is a failure? I don’t; at least I remain optimistic. America is becoming more and more multicultural, that is just a fact. At some point the myth of the American Dream of a mostly white middle America will collapse. The question is, what will replace it? Will the rich and privileged continue to dominate, the only difference being that the new rich and privileged will no longer be exclusively white? Or will the majority of Americans finally stop being fooled into thinking that they’re part of an exclusive club that bankrupts them with membership dues that are higher than they can afford? I agree. The next revolution won’t be cultural, it will be class-based. When the mob starts hanging billionaires from the lampposts, we’ll see some changes. If the “American Experiment” is to survive, we’ll need to eat the rich. A quick return to Eisenhower level tax rates would be a start. Totally ditch “Citizens United” and every other corporate gift. Guillotines may not be necessary. But I wouldn’t count on it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/36 "2023-06-24T16:15:48Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > > [@Odesio](#): > > > > As bad as Trump is, we’ve been worse off in the past and managed to come through it. I think we’ll survive Trump and his ilk. > > I think that this argument is incredibly corrosive and why we are collapsing. There is this belief, especially among white boomers that we’ll be fine because they just want it to be true. What, exactly, is the argument that you find so corrosive? I don’t see an explicit argument in what @Odesio said, but I suspect the implicit argument you are seeing is something like: - Things have been worse in the past - We survived then. - Therefore, we will inevitably survive now. I don’t think that’s what @Odesio was saying; I think it’s more like: - Things have been worse in the past - We survived then. - Therefore, there is reason to hope/think that we will survive now. Now that argument I can get behind. And I find it significantly less corrosive than an argument that things are hopeless and we are doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/37 "2023-06-24T16:24:23Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > It’s the very diversity that we are proud of and brag about (“The Melting Pot”) that is the fundamental reason that we cannot all get along. TOO many different backgrounds, ethnic identities, religious differences, differences in values, and NO umbrella that everyone will agree to peacefully and respectfully co-exist under. So, the problem is we didn’t keep out enough non-Whites? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/38 "2023-06-24T16:28:17Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What, exactly, is the argument that you find so corrosive? I think this idea that we had a bad thing happen before therefore we will be okay now is corrosive. It’s based on a simplistic understanding of what the civil war was and ignores its repercussions that we are still facing today. We are collapsing now because of the civil war, the peace we made by allowing the continued subjugation of blacks and the lionization of the enslavers. The fact we let the losers write the history of the civil war is why we are were we are. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/39 "2023-06-24T16:49:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, the problem is we didn’t keep out enough non-Whites? No, it’s that the various groups in the tent refuse to respect each other and get along. **You** tell me why. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036/40 "2023-06-24T16:54:51Z")
I think the American Experiment has not failed, but tested, and though got very damaged under Trump seemed to be holding true to the American Experiment in its damaged state. The dictatorship option you mention was stopped due to our adversarial 2 party system and separation of powers. Where it is generally in the best interest of politicians to unite against a power grab, and preserve our freedom. So the question of the melting pot, as I took it the melting pot was not to create a stagnate unified US society, but have each culture add to its flavor to the pot which eventually works its way through the whole. As such new ingredients were always added and usually find their place in society as they work their way to fully accepted US citizens as they melt in and generationally leave their small enclave communities. As such I still think it’s working but also I think we have tended a bit more to the salad bowl as of late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-question-is-the-american-experiment-a-failure/986036.md?page=3)