# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2119 "2023-12-03T16:35:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But why would anyone who isn’t forced by circumstance to be a part of this clusterfuck ever come anywhere near this situation? Because, if we don’t, it could blow up our planet. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2120 "2023-12-03T16:36:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cite that the IDF is attacking civilians? You _might_ make a case that the IDF isn’t _targeting_ civilians. But not _attacking_ them? No, that’s not going to fly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2121 "2023-12-03T16:38:27Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The alternative is to place the West Bank and Gaza under the control of a Constituent Assembly composed of parties far removed from the special interests involved. Probably academics from Japan, Canada, Sweden etc. and backed by the power of the US and others. Similar to what happened in Japan and Germany after WW2. Their goal would be to form, over time, a viable economy with a native civil service organization and government in what is now occupied and contested areas. I agree but what happened in Japan and Germany was the result of total defeat and unconditional surrender. > [@Crane](#): > > When the Palestinians have an alternative path, Hamas will cease to exist. Hopefully that’s true but that requires a government with a sufficient separation of church and state to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2122 "2023-12-03T16:43:07Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The alternative is to place the West Bank and Gaza under the control of a Constituent Assembly composed of parties far removed from the special interests involved. Probably academics from Japan, Canada, Sweden etc. and backed by the power of the US and others. No matter how well-intentioned the idea, I fear that any member of the Constituent Assembly showing up in Gaza and/or the West Bank would have a massive target on their forehead as an “occupier” and “Crusader.” ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2123 "2023-12-03T16:43:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hopefully that’s true but that requires a government with a sufficient separation of church and state to survive. Japan and Germany also had economic institutions that survived the war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2124 "2023-12-03T16:49:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You _might_ make a case that the IDF isn’t _targeting_ civilians. > > But not _attacking_ them? No, that’s not going to fly. Fine, that’s fair; then a different way to answer @puzzlegal’s question: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > What military benefit has any of the attacks on civilians gained? Hitting civilian targets has no benefit. In fact, it is a massive cost. That cost is weighed against the benefit that comes from striking Hamas, destroying their equipment, and seizing their positions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2125 "2023-12-03T16:55:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Japan and Germany also had economic institutions that survived the war. And generally that was with the help and cooperation of the victors. Take something like the VW Beetle. It was the results of a British officer’s intervention who saw a potential worldwide product that could be resurrected from what was left of German factories. And that was from a society steeped in an intellectual and industrial background. Japan was similar in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2126 "2023-12-03T16:58:40Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > No matter how well-intentioned the idea, I fear that any member of the Constituent Assembly showing up in Gaza and/or the West Bank would have a massive target on their forehead as an “occupier” and “Crusader.” Then let a coalition of Arab states do it after all. This is probably a big reason for the timing of this attack, incidentally. We all know that Israel was in the process of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia. Once that happens, and happens with the other Arab states as well, these countries may stop propping up Palestinian militant groups. Further, they may actually have an incentive to work _with_ Israel in order to establish a stable Palestinian state instead. To someone like Hamas, Iran, or even the PA under Abbas - this would be _disastrous_. It would mean the end of their power in the region (or for PA it would mean transforming into a real government, without Abbas or his enablers). ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2127 "2023-12-03T17:05:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That cost is weighed against the benefit that comes from striking Hamas, destroying their equipment, and seizing their positions. Strategic bombing directed at the civilian population during WW2 proved that to be false. The civilian population just wants to go home and return to normalcy. Israel has removed them, destroyed their homes and denies them the ability to return. The percent of those killed who may be Hamas is unknown, but since Hamas was prepared and protected the number is likely far less than we have been told. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2128 "2023-12-03T17:28:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas has to be removed. If the Gazan’s want this to happen they will have to engage in the process. Great. So let’s say you’re a Gaza resident. You set your parameters–are you a man or a woman? 18 years old or 60 years old? A baker, an accountant, a factory worker? The one parameter you can’t have is, you can’t be a ranking member of Hamas. What steps do you undertake, in the midst of the air strikes, to make this happen? People keep telling critics of IDF to give their better ideas. I turn this on you, as a critic of Gaza residents: what would you do? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2129 "2023-12-03T18:01:29Z")
[https://twitter.com/reider/status/1731113245027496280](https://twitter.com/reider/status/1731113245027496280) A few days ago, two Hamas terrorists attack civilians in Jerusalem. Three Israelis are killed, and then a Jewish Israeli former cop (named Doron Castleman) who happened to be armed engaged the terrorists and kills both, preventing anyone else from being killed. As IDF soldiers approach, Castleman drops his gun, lifts his shirt to show he’s not a bomber, and explains in Hebrew what happened. But because the Israeli right-wing lionized an IDF soldier in 2016 who summarily executed a Palestinian, these IDF soldiers think this is the right thing to do, and then shoot Castleman dead (presumably thinking he’s a terrorist). And apparently it took 3 days for Netanyahu and the other authorities to admit that there was a serious problem here that requires investigation. Taking everything into account since the attacks on Oct 7th, ISTM that the IDF is a broken institution. Netanyahu and his allies have broken it. I don’t know how anyone can trust such a broken institution to accomplish this utterly monumental task of eliminating Hamas among 2 million Gazans. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2130 "2023-12-03T18:33:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But because the Israeli right-wing lionized an IDF soldier in 2016 who summarily executed a Palestinian That was a horrible incident. And the people who lionized the guy are evil agitators. But the IDF investigated the guy, there was a trial, and he even did jailtime. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And apparently it took 3 days for Netanyahu and the other authorities to admit that there was a serious problem here that requires investigation. Shin Bet began investigating this incident the day it happened. > **[Israeli soldier who killed civilian during response to attack: We shot until...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-01/ty-article/.premium/israeli-soldier-who-killed-civilian-during-response-to-attack-we-shot-until-they-fell/0000018c-25c7-dc03-a9ec-3dff4f720000)** > > \*\*\* I would give better than even odds for this shooter to end up doing time, too. Sounds like the IDF has a better track record than most US police departments. That 2016 incident that you characterized as a solider executing a Palestinian? I agree with you that this is basically what happened. The guy’s excuse was that he saw the Palestinian reach for his shirt and suspected he had a suicide belt. Note, this guy and his companion had already stabbed an IDF soldier, injuring him. If US cops arrested two people for already stabbing a cop (yeah right, as if US police officers would have taken a stabber alive in that scenario…) and thought one of them was reaching for a weapon when they killed him, I think they’d be very likely to be let off the hook. I think the IDF deserves major props for punishing that soldier. I would have perhaps preferred a harsher punishment, but I hardly think this is evidence that the IDF is a “broken” institution. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2131 "2023-12-03T18:49:14Z")
I believe the time has passed for a reasonable resolution. There are embedded interests on all sides and the Palestinian civilians are pawns in the game. Netanyahu is likely to survive as the savior of the homeland and Israel will continue it’s apartheid path. The pending alliance with Suuni Saudi Arabia will progress to form a bulwark against Iran and the Shia. Israeli minorities are destined to become the street people of the future elitist ethnic state. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2132 "2023-12-03T18:54:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Netanyahu is likely to survive as the savior of the homeland The guy who let the worst terror attack in the nation’s history occur will most certainly not be viewed as the “_savior of the homeland_”. In fact, Netanyahu is floundering politically, lashing out at everyone but himself and refusing to take any responsibility. He’s done. The rest of your predictions are equally spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2133 "2023-12-03T19:01:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The rest of your predictions are equally spurious. Perhaps so. And, we will have the opportunity to see what happens. Consider the US where a blithering con man is a serious contender for the Presidency. Netanyahu has a longer history of success than Trump. Like Trump, he can blame everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2134 "2023-12-03T19:19:40Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Consider the US where a blithering con man is a serious contender for the Presidency. Netanyahu has a longer history of success than Trump. Like Trump, he can blame everybody else. I’ve spoken a few times here about why I think it’s a mistake to compare Trump, Bush, 9/11, or the US to Netanyahu, Israel, or Oct 7 too directly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2135 "2023-12-03T19:28:36Z")
Better than most US police departments isn’t much of a bar to clear. And sources seem to differ on when Israeli authorities actually began to take this incident seriously. But we’ll see, hopefully you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2136 "2023-12-03T19:41:07Z")
Yes, if rockets are being launched from those locations. The only “Israel _should_ do X” I see in this response is “end the siege”. Am I to assume then that you would consider _any_ action against Hamas to be unjust? ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2137 "2023-12-03T19:51:56Z")
“It’s not my job to find the best solution” is an answer that dodges responsibility, and it’s another rhetorical tactic I’ve observed often in this debate. It’s easy to criticize, but the people in charge have to do _something_. If you don’t consider yourself to have the qualifications to propose a path forward, why do you consider yourself to have the qualifications to criticize the existing one? > After all, if every Palestinian is fair game because “their leadership is evil” then it’s not very hard to argue that every Jew is fair game, for exactly the same reason. I hope nobody in this thread is suggesting Palestinians outside of the active conflict zone are “fair game”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2138 "2023-12-03T19:55:38Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > Yes, if rockets are being launched from those locations. Wait, now Hamas was actually launching rockets from al-Shifa? And I don’t mean from its parking lot, a decade ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=102)