# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 102
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2139 "2023-12-03T20:04:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > People keep telling critics of IDF to give their better ideas. I turn this on you, as a critic of Gaza residents: what would you do? Form an alternate government and surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2140 "2023-12-03T20:08:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Form an alternate government and surrender. Sounds like a plan. They probably have a majority of the population in the south. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2141 "2023-12-03T20:15:18Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > but the people in charge have to do _something_. If you don’t consider yourself to have the qualifications to propose a path forward, why do you consider yourself to have the qualifications to criticize the existing one? I suggested one option that I believe would be better than the path they are on. I declined to suggest the _best_ option, because I am not qualified to do that. But I didn’t back away from proposing an alternative that would be less bad. And > [@P91noX](#): > > I hope nobody in this thread is suggesting Palestinians outside of the active conflict zone are “fair game”. WTF is the “active conflict zone”? Where-ever Israel decides to strike? It seems to be all of Gaza, including the places Israel told the civilians to go. ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2142 "2023-12-03T20:16:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Wait, now Hamas was actually launching rockets from al-Shifa? And I don’t mean from its parking lot, a decade ago I was referring to [al-Quds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pka7H1aMlkQ). My understanding of Banquet\_Bear’s post is he was referring specifically to airstrikes and artillery, which I do think must be reserved for sites of active Hamas fire or troop concentrations. My understanding is that al-Shifa itself was not bombed (though there was a strike on a vehicle that the IDF claims was being used to transport Hamas militants) immediately nearby. Al-Shifa was occupied by IDF troops, which I do consider to be a proportionate response to having an arsenal in its MRI Zone 3. If you have a report of the IDF bombing Al-Shifa, I am open to being educated. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2143 "2023-12-03T20:18:29Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > I used to lurk around here back in the Diogenes the Cynic days but never made an account. Made one a few days ago but kept thinking twice about wading in, but I want to clarify your response… are you saying you’d support Mossad carrying out extrajudicial assassination of Hamas leadership in Qatar? No, I would not. But the question wasn’t “what’s a moral or legal alternative?” it was “what’s an alternative?” Frankly, I think the two-state solution should have been imposed and enforced decades ago, but I don’t have either a time machine or the ability to impose my will in such a manner. Right now I think both sides in this war are in the wrong. As for targeted assassinations - it would be a horrifically deplorable thing, but perhaps, just maybe, a lesser evil than killing 20,000 or 30,000 or more innocent civilians. I mean, both alternatives suck, are criminal, terrible, horrible, no-good things but one of them will have a lower body count. But that’s not the same thing as saying I support it or would condone it. > [@P91noX](#): > > To add context to my question, the reason I ask is that in my reading of this thread as well as many Reddit posts, I see a lot of posters saying “Israel shouldn’t do X”. I don’t see many concrete ideas of what Israel should do (in the context of addressing its security issues w.r.t. Hamas; I certainly see a lot of broader suggestions to disband the West Bank settlements, which I support, and disband the state entirely, which I do not). Israel - and Hamas - is in a no-win situation. And it’s largely their own damn fault although when I say something like that these days I’m often accused of antisemitism. Criticizing the actions of the Israeli government is not at all antisemitism, being Jewish is not a get-out-of-criticism-free card. But let’s look at what you’ve laid out: > [@P91noX](#): > > A) do nothing in Gaza Not going to happen - no government on Earth can tolerate the sort of attack that occurred on October 7 without a response. > [@P91noX](#): > > B) perform artillery and air strikes on Gaza followed by ground invasion resulting in high Gazan casualties and low Israeli casualties The problem here (as I see it) is not that they’re engaging in this option but the MANNER in which it is being done. Such as telling civilians to move to the south of Gaza for safety then bombing the shit out of the so-called “safe zones”. That is sadistic and cruel. Depriving the civilian population of food, water, fuel, and all other resources is a war crime, sadistic, and cruel. It results in disproportionate civilian deaths and that has a LOT to do with why Israel is losing the PR war and may, in the future, become a reason it loses US support. Bombing the shit out of a hospital, entering it, and _taking absolutely no responsibility for bed-ridden patients left behind there_ and just _leaving them to die._ That is inhumane, sadistic, and cruel and the IDF/Israeli government have done exactly that more than once in this conflict. Again - it is not that the IDF is engaging Hamas, it is the MANNER in which the IDF is doing this. > [@P91noX](#): > > C) ground invasion without artillery or air support, resulting in high Gazan and Israeli casualties That is an alternative to B that might result in more equitable casualty numbers between the two sides. If that results in fewer dead innocent civilians it’s an acceptable trade-off. If such a ground invasion was conducted as the current operation has been - cutting off all necessities of life, telling people to evacuate to safe zones then attacking said safe zones, destroying hospitals and leaving people inside to die - then it is no better. > [@P91noX](#): > > D) targeted assassination of Hamas leadership. Pretty reprehensible, but then so is how the IDF is going about choice B. If this approach saved tens of thousands of lives then it would be the lesser evil. > [@P91noX](#): > > Or is there an option E that I’m missing? Again - it’s not that option B is _inherently_ the worst choice, or an immoral choice, it’s _ **how the IDF/Israeli government are going about it.** _ ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2144 "2023-12-03T20:22:06Z")
> I suggested one option that I believe would be better than the path they are on. Fair - I apologize and retract my accusation. As I mentioned yesterday I’ve been reading a lot of “Israel shouldn’t do X” recently, without the accompanying “Israel should do Y instead”; sorry for conflating your post with those. > WTF is the “active conflict zone”? Where-ever Israel decides to strike? It seems to be all of Gaza, including the places Israel told the civilians to go. Your post implied that you, as an American Jew, feel that Israel’s targeting parameters render you a valid target. This seems hyperbolic to me - I see no evidence that Israel is targeting anyone outside of Hamas-controlled territory. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2145 "2023-12-03T20:27:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > telling people to evacuate to safe zones then attacking said safe zones, I imagine that when hamas hides among the people in a safe zone, it is no longer safe. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2146 "2023-12-03T20:30:30Z")
Then just admit there are no safe zones. Otherwise it is a cruel lie. The reality is that there is no safe place in Gaza, the IDF is free to bomb anything anywhere without regard to collateral damage - a pretty phrase for “dead and maimed civilians”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2147 "2023-12-03T20:35:29Z")
Who is getting the aid we’re sending If there are no safe zones? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2148 "2023-12-03T20:46:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas consists of more than a couple of people in Qatar. There are Hamas representatives and a military wing in Gaza and they should be held to account by the local people. Palestinians need to assemble their own political group to counter Hamas leaders hiding in absentia. Since 2015 anyone attempting to do that has been killed by Hamas, They really are entrenched. Expecting people who are refugees slowly dying of hunger and thirst to engage in an uprising is not a realistic expectation > [@Babale](#): > > Cite that the IDF is attacking civilians? > **[‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)** > > Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza. And if that’s not convincing - the fact that Israel had control of Al-Shifa hospital then _left bedridden patients to die_ instead of stepping up and actually providing care to those people is just disgusting and sick. International standards call upon a warring nation to provide care even to enemies that are no longer combat soldiers by reason of injury or illness. The government of Israel is abrogating their responsibility and should be called out on it. Also, this: > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Does my call out change anything, of course not. But I am tired of the sanctimonious shit of Israel saying we will do whatever it takes because we are right, but then claiming a special status as a historically persecuted people who are therefore beyond criticism. You wanna bomb Gaza? Go ahead, just own it, go full heel. And be a big boy on the international stage, and accept that “doing whatever is necessary” means losing friends and losing support. Israel isn’t special, it’s just another nation flexing it’s military power. As an American, I’ve learned not to take a personally when foreigners call us out. There is a support group for warmongering nations at the library on Tuesday evenings. It’s run by a delightful English gentleman who used to live around your parts. I’m getting heartily sick of the “Jews are special victims” bullshit. They aren’t the only persecuted people on the planet, they aren’t the first, or even the most recent, to face genocide. And I say that as a Jew who lost the European branch of my father’s family to WWII. Also: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I honestly think it’s time for decent Israelis to question whether their leadership is lying to them, as the US leadership has often lied to us. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t trust Netanyahu and Co as far as I can throw them. But they’re also _not the ones running this war_, not at the level of picking airstrike targets or directing troops on the ground. And I _do_ trust the IDF, far more than I trust this particular civilian government. I am _really_ getting vibes of the US-Vietnam war when our government was lying about who was getting bombed and sending young men into meat-grinders for no damn good reason. The military follows the lead of the civilian government. And it’s a damn shame that this is tarring the reputation of the many decent, patriotic, and good men and women serving in the IDF but it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole barrel. Good people serving an evil and unjust government is appalling, but it can happen. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2149 "2023-12-03T20:51:57Z")
How? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2150 "2023-12-03T21:08:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The guy who let the worst terror attack in the nation’s history occur will most certainly not be viewed as the “_savior of the homeland_”. Worked for Bush the Younger. > [@Babale](#): > > In fact, Netanyahu is floundering politically, lashing out at everyone but himself and refusing to take any responsibility. He’s done. I will believe it when I see it. And I very much hope your prediction is accurate. > [@P91noX](#): > > > After all, if every Palestinian is fair game because “their leadership is evil” then it’s not very hard to argue that every Jew is fair game, for exactly the same reason. > > I hope nobody in this thread is suggesting Palestinians outside of the active conflict zone are “fair game”. Not in this thread, no, but there is evidence that there are some people who do, in fact, consider every [Palestinian](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/29/us/palestinian-college-students-shot-vermont/index.html) [“fair game”](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/us/chicago-muslim-boy-stabbing-investigation/index.html). > [@P91noX](#): > > Your post implied that you, as an American Jew, feel that Israel’s targeting parameters render you a valid target. This seems hyperbolic to me - I see no evidence that Israel is targeting anyone outside of Hamas-controlled territory. I think you’ve misunderstood the position of some American Jews. As one such I don’t fee that _Israel_ will target me. I am concerned pro-Hamas entities might do so. Or antisemites. Certainly there are parties who feel justified in [targeting water supplies in the US](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/us/pennsylvania-water-cyberattack/index.html) or US healthcare institutions. > [@Magiver](#): > > Who is getting the aid we’re sending If there are no safe zones? The amount of aid betting through is laughably insufficient for the numbers of starving, thirsty, wounded people. And, since they have the guns, I expect Hamas is getting at least some of it. But since the only way to perfectly prevent Hamas from getting any is to allow nothing in, dooming tens of thousands to a slow death, I think we have to allow aid anyway and not have the perfect be the enemy of the good, or even the better-than-nothing. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2151 "2023-12-03T21:18:58Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > > WTF is the “active conflict zone”? Where-ever Israel decides to strike? It seems to be all of Gaza, including the places Israel told the civilians to go. > > Your post implied that you, as an American Jew, feel that Israel’s targeting parameters render you a valid target. This seems hyperbolic to me - I see no evidence that Israel is targeting anyone outside of Hamas-controlled territory. Yes, i do. And no, i don’t think **Israel** is going to target me, i think Israel is giving moral cover for random anti semites to target me. Like, really major serious moral equivalency. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2152 "2023-12-03T21:28:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > i think Israel is giving moral cover for random anti semites to target me. Like, really major serious moral equivalency. I can’t readily imagine an antisemite who’d be perfectly willing to target me if and only if they are — or believe they are — given, uh, moral cover by this; isn’t there, like, an old saying about how any excuse can satisfy people who are already looking for one? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2153 "2023-12-03T21:30:22Z")
No, i don’t think Israel is going to bomb the US. That would be incredibly stupid of them. I live near several major college campuses. In the past, I’ve always felt that American Jews and American Muslims were basically allies. We are both “not quite white” and not at all Christian, and have had a lot of common interests. The nearby mosque is across the street from a synagogue, and the two have a lot of joint activities. All of a sudden, I’m afraid that some of those Muslim college kids, frustrated that the US is supporting Israel in it’s rather extreme acts of… frankly, they look more like revenge than like actual military actions from where i sit… will decide that if every civilian in Gaza is fair game for Israel, maybe they can fight back by attacking me. That’s how Israel’s actions are affecting me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2154 "2023-12-03T21:39:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The amount of aid betting through is laughably insufficient for the numbers of starving, thirsty, wounded people. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2155 "2023-12-03T21:39:57Z")
I’ll just throw in here that the local synagogue I occasionally attend has had to divert money from its building fund for badly needed repairs and maintenance in order to increase security and remove graffiti from the building. Contrary to rumors of Jewish wealth, it’s not a congregation with a lot of money. Nor do I enjoy the increased scrutiny greeting me at the door of synagogues and Jewish cultural centers in this area. They know me so they let me in but I am definitely aware of the bumped up security. I will not be putting any menorahs in my window this Hanukkah. I try not to flinch when I hear certain types of comments at work from either fellow employees or customers. That’s how Israel’s actions are affecting me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2156 "2023-12-03T21:46:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > The amount of aid betting through is laughably insufficient for the numbers of starving, thirsty, wounded people. > > Cite? There are two million people who have had all water, food, fuel, and power cut. Before October 7 - 500 trucks a day entered Gaza, along with power lines and water pipes. For part of the times since October 7 as many as 100 trucks were permitted in a day - but many days there were none. During the “pause in fighting” as many as 200 a day were permitted which is _still_ inadequate compared to pre-Oct 7 trucking. Since fighting resumed only 50 trucks have been permitted to enter. And keep in mind - trucks are now the ONLY way anything gets into Gaza. All the other things - pipelines, powerlines, aircraft, boats, etc. - have ceased. To replace all that would require more than the pre-war 500 trucks a day. > **[First aid trucks enter Gaza since end of truce, renewed Israeli strikes](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/2/first-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-after-post-truce-holdup-as-israeli-bombs-fall)** > > Aid organisations say they face difficulties operating as Israel resumes its bombardment of Palestinians in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2157 "2023-12-03T21:56:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not in this thread, no, but there is evidence that there are some people who do, in fact, consider every [Palestinian](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/29/us/palestinian-college-students-shot-vermont/index.html) [“fair game”](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/us/chicago-muslim-boy-stabbing-investigation/index.html). Racist Americans killing people in America has nothing to do with the IDF’s behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2158 "2023-12-03T22:09:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And keep in mind - trucks are now the ONLY way anything gets into Gaza. Jordan has air dropped food and medical supplies so it’s not the only way of getting supplies in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=101) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=103)