# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 103
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2159 "2023-12-03T22:37:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Racist Americans killing people in America has nothing to do with the IDF’s behavior. I wish that were true, but it’s not. All the news about the war has an effect. All the images of dead Palestinians and bombed out buildings do, too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2160 "2023-12-03T22:52:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > And keep in mind - trucks are now the ONLY way anything gets into Gaza. > > Jordan has air dropped food and medical supplies so it’s not the only way of getting supplies in. In that case I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2161 "2023-12-03T23:14:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m afraid that some of those Muslim college kids, frustrated that the US is supporting Israel in it’s rather extreme acts of… frankly, they look more like revenge than like actual military actions from where i sit… will decide that if every civilian in Gaza is fair game for Israel, maybe they can fight back by attacking me. I didn’t misunderstand your post; I assumed you meant that you think Israel’s selection of targets is morally equivalent to Hamas’s selection of you as a target. The reason I think that’s unreasonable is that IDF has not targeted the Palestinian diaspora abroad, nor in the West Bank outside of what I understand are Hamas-controlled enclaves (the Settlers are a separate matter and the US absolutely should be making aid conditional on their being reigned in immediately), nor even in Qatar where Hamas leadership lives. So if someone uses Israeli targeting Hamas targets near or in areas where civilians live as moral cover to target you (or me) far away from any IDF assets, that seems like a false equivalence on their part, and not one that the IDF should be responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2162 "2023-12-03T23:27:06Z")
> **[How Israel built its case to raid Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/15/israel-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-raid-case/)** > > For weeks, Israel has been building the case that al-Shifa hospital was the “beating heart” of Hamas’s operations in northern Gaza. Early Wednesday, troops moved in. So, this is from a few weeks ago, but it says the Israeli military found: > Photographs released later by the IDF appeared to show the full alleged haul, laid out neatly: Military uniforms, 11 guns, three military vests, one with a Hamas logo, nine grenades, two Qurans, a string of prayer beads, a box of dates. How can that possibly justify having shut down a major hospital, leaving patients unable to leave to die? As best as i can tell, the IDF selection of targets is random. And they could have sent soldiers into that hospital without shutting it down if they thought there was something actually valuable there. (And if the claim is, “there was more stuff, but Hamas moved it” then the whole assault was a waste of lives. Because if the military assets can move that easily, there’s no particular benefit to targeting buildings at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2163 "2023-12-03T23:44:59Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So, this is from a few weeks ago, but it says the Israeli military found: > > > Photographs released later by the IDF appeared to show the full alleged haul, laid out neatly: Military uniforms, 11 guns, three military vests, one with a Hamas logo, nine grenades, two Qurans, a string of prayer beads, a box of dates. > > How can that possibly justify having shut down a major hospital, leaving patients unable to leave to die? Again, that article is simply gaslighting you. There were significantly more weapons found than that. The videos of Shifa from the first couple days on the IDF official channel alone show far more than “11 guns”. This link has a picture from Shifa with _dozens_ of guns. > **[אחרי שנחשפה לכל העולם: צה"ל השמיד את מנהרת הטרור בשיפא](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1redn64t)** > > רגע לפני שנכנסה לתוקף הפסקת האש, הצבא עוד המשיך לפעול ברחבי רצועת עזה - והרס את תוואי מנהרות הטרור שבהן השתמש חמאס מתחת לבית חולים. צפו בכתבנו בתוך המנהרה, ובראיות שנמצאו בה - ובהן תיק "60 שנה לבארי". תיעוד מהתקיפות האחרונות שלפני ההפוגה The idea that all that the IDF found at Al Shifa was a handful of guns is simply _not true_. It’s gaslighting. It’s as insidious as all the “Israel kills 500 in hospital airstrike” nonsense we heard at the beginning of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2164 "2023-12-04T00:02:02Z")
And I hope that when you’re asking “what did military action accomplish” you realize that the reason Hamas came to the table and agreed to release the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire, after a month of saying “there can be no negotiation without Israel ending their attack first”, is that they got their asses kicked for long enough that they decided it was time to lick their wounds. If the IDF isn’t making any progress, why did Hamas suddenly make concessions? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2165 "2023-12-04T00:22:12Z")
Thank you for that link. Honestly, it’s still not a very impressive haul for destroying a hospital and all the fragile people in it. And the article says Hamas removed most of what was there, which gets back to “if their stuff is that easy to move, what’s the value of destroying buildings?” And while I’m sure it was useful to destroy the tunnels, i still wonder if they couldn’t have been taken without shutting down the hospital. The tunnels are under the building, after all. But yes, Hamas did agree to a hostage exchange, after saying they wouldn’t negotiate at all without a cease fire. So yes, the IDF has done some damage to Hamas. It’s still an awful lot of dead civilians. An awful lot of destroyed homes. An awful lot of new orphans to fight for Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2166 "2023-12-04T00:31:39Z")
So the Washington Post is gaslighting, but an Israeli news site is telling nothing but the truth. I see a photo of a pile of guns. How do I know where they came from. More importantly, how do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2167 "2023-12-04T01:33:16Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > How do I know where they came from Well, you could read the attribution, for one. YNet, a reputable news site, makes that easily available to find right under the photo. It was taken by Ahikam Seri, a respected photojournalist and documentarian who is certainly no right-wing apologist. If you pay attention you will see that American papers use him too. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2168 "2023-12-04T02:02:53Z")
I read the article, even translated it. This reporter and that newspaper are more reputable than the Washington Post? Not to me. Why should I believe that a single word printed in an Israeli news source right now isn’t incredibly biased by either the reporter, the news outlet, or the by the IDF and the Israeli government. Or a combination of all three. That reporter was given a tour by IDF personnel, did he actually see weapons before they were nearly stacked for a photo op? Part of the reason for my mistrust is because the IDF and friends spoke so loudly about there being a Hamas HQ hiding under the hospital. Reminds me of the similarly laughable claims 55 years ago that the Viet Cong were being run out of a bamboo Pentagon. And then the big reveal - a couple of guns and some equipment. IDF way oversold what was in there. They should have just gone with the much more realistic claim that Hamas forces were hiding there. But no, had to be an HQ. Whelp, until the IDF delivers a hidden HQ I don’t think I need to believe any Israeli gaslighting that is coming out of Gaza. When you make bullshit propaganda claims, it ends up biting you in the ass, and costs you credibility in the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2169 "2023-12-04T02:16:04Z")
With the caveat that I can’t read Hebrew, the two stories don’t seem to be in conflict. The WaPo article documents a video released by the IDF shortly after securing the hospital and the YNet article is about what was found in the tunnels underneath it. The WaPo article also says that US intelligence says Hamas uses the hospital. It seems weird to disbelieve an article that lines up with your preferred source. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2170 "2023-12-04T02:17:17Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > With the caveat that I can’t read Hebrew, the two stories don’t seem to be in conflict. I don’t think they _are_ in conflict in their text. But the _sub_text of the Washington Post article is that the IDF was lying and those 10 guns are all there was, which is what I consider to be gaslighting. Eta: perhaps that’s more to do with how the article has continued to be used with that subtext even once additional info came to light. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2171 "2023-12-04T02:38:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Eta: perhaps that’s more to do with how the article has continued to be used with that subtext even once additional info came to light. Good point. Can we date the articles? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2172 "2023-12-04T02:45:23Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > Yes, if rockets are being launched from those locations. > [@P91noX](#): > > My understanding of Banquet\_Bear’s post is he was referring specifically to airstrikes and artillery, **which I do think must be reserved for sites of active Hamas fire or troop concentrations.** …bolding mine. What makes you think this? Because your understanding isn’t correct. > [@P91noX](#): > > My understanding is that al-Shifa itself was not bombed (though there was a strike on a vehicle that the IDF claims was being used to transport Hamas militants) immediately nearby. Al-Shifa was occupied by IDF troops, which I do consider to be a proportionate response to having an arsenal in its MRI Zone 3. If you have a report of the IDF bombing Al-Shifa, I am open to being educated. My claim is that Al-Shifa, along with every other hospital in the north, have been _taken out of action_. It doesn’t matter if they were shot at by the IDF or they were bombed by the IDF. Because _they were taken out of action_ by the IDF. They were placed under siege. Denied food, water, fuel. In some cases medical teams and patients were forced to leave, in other cases they left because there was no other choice. Then, from reports from people that returned during the pause, critical medical equipment had been destroyed. So now there are effectively no hospitals in the north. I just want you to think through what that _means_. Think about all of the services that hospitals provide when there isn’t even a war. None of that is available. No dialysis. No cancer treatment. No covid treatment. Hundreds of mothers giving birth and with no access to healthcare. When I say the hospitals have been taken out of action, _this is what I mean_. > [@P91noX](#): > > The only “Israel _should_ do X” I see in this response is “end the siege”. That would be because I wasn’t answering your question. I was questioning your premise. > [@P91noX](#): > > Am I to assume then that you would consider _any_ action against Hamas to be unjust? I wouldn’t assume anything. If I had intended to argue that " _any_ action against Hamas to be unjust" than I would have said that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2173 "2023-12-04T03:20:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > How can that possibly justify having shut down a major hospital, leaving patients unable to leave to die? I would expect them to take the tunnel express with everything they could carry prior to the hospital being breached. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2174 "2023-12-04T03:45:35Z")
…the “number of guns found” is just missing the point. For starters: we aren’t just talking about Al Shifa. We are talking about al-Rantisi, al-Nasr, Indonesian, al-Awda, the International eye hospital, al-Quds, Turkish-Palestinian Friendship hospital, the Psychiatric hospital. Hospitals have protected status in war. **They cannot be attacked or otherwise prevented from performing their medical functions**. There are situations that allow the protective status to be removed. But every expert in international law that I’ve seen have said the bar to removing that status _hasn’t been met_. Not at Al Shifa. Not at any of the other hospitals. If this cache of arms, all gathered together in one place for a photo op is all of the evidence the IDF has, then that _isn’t_ enough to have lifted the protections for a number of reasons, the most important being the IDF didn’t know about the alleged presence of weapons until _they had taken over the hospital_. The conventions require more than evidence gathered _after_ the hospital had been taken. To lose protected status hospitals would need to have been used as a “party to the conflict”, used to commit an “act harmful to the enemy”, and if there was any doubt about this, then **they should be presumed not to be so used**. The _claim_ was that under Al Shifa was a command and control bunker. That wasn’t what has been presented here. But even if that collection of weapons wasn’t stored weapons of combatants getting treatment (allowable under the conventions) that doesn’t explain what happened at the _other_ hospitals in the north. And the conventions provide that once taken over, the IDF should not prevent the doctors from performing their medical functions, and if they were unable to do so, then the IDF should have provided those services. But that didn’t happen at Al Shifa or at _any of the other hospitals_. Medical staff, patients and people sheltering at the hospitals were forcibly expelled from the hospitals. And those that were allowed to remain weren’t given the resources they needed, so had to abandon the hospital anyway. And once they left, critical equipment and infrastructure at the hospital were _destroyed_ by the IDF. These are the things that actually matter here. That hospitals in the north have been effectively taken out of action. Critical infrastructure is gone. And everyone that wasn’t able to get to the south (not that it matters anyway as the south is now a target) have no access to _any_ sort of healthcare at all. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2175 "2023-12-04T04:00:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If this cache of arms, all gathered together in one place for a photo op is all of the evidence the IDF has, then that _isn’t_ enough to have lifted the protections for a number of reasons, the most important being the IDF didn’t know about the alleged presence of weapons until _they had taken over the hospital_. Obviously they did, which is why they said that Shifa was a Hamas HQ and then attacked it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2176 "2023-12-04T04:01:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The _claim_ was that under Al Shifa was a command and control bunker. That wasn’t what has been presented here That’s because I was responding to gaslighting claims that Al Shifa had no weapons and was not used by Hamas. There’s proof of the tunnels, too. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2177 "2023-12-04T04:18:47Z")
What’s gaslighting? That the article i read said the idf had only shown them 11 rifles when some other article said the idf had found a few dozen? Maybe it took the idf another day to find another few rifles. It’s still a pretty paltry showing for an alleged major base. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2178 "2023-12-04T04:21:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s still a pretty paltry showing for an alleged major base. Sure, if we ignore the cells where captives were held in the basement, the tunnels underneath the basement levels, the combatants engaged in the Al Shifa complex as it was taken over, etc… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=102) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=104)