# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 104
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2179 "2023-12-04T04:25:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Obviously they did, …hospitals are _allowed_ to remove and store weapons from combatants under the conventions, so obviously they were going to find _some_ weapons at the hospital. > [@Babale](#): > > which is why they said that Shifa was a Hamas HQ And where is the evidence of this? > [@Babale](#): > > That’s because I was responding to gaslighting claims that Al Shifa had no weapons and was not used by Hamas. The claim isn’t that " Al Shifa had no weapons." Hospitals can securely _store_ weapons. This is allowable explicitly under the conventions. Which makes the forensic detail of the _collection_ of those weapons even more important, and the gathering of those weapons for a photo op kinda meaningless. > [@Babale](#): > > There’s proof of the tunnels, too. We always knew there were [tunnels](https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107). They were built _decades_ ago. Tunnels aren’t proof of a command and control bunker. And this doesn’t explain the other hospitals. And it doesn’t explain why all of these hospitals are _no longer functional._ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2180 "2023-12-04T04:29:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sure, if we ignore the cells where captives were held in the basement, …[citation needed] > [@Babale](#): > > the tunnels underneath the basement levels, That everyone knew about that were built decades ago. > [@Babale](#): > > the combatants engaged in the Al Shifa complex as it was taken over, etc… That none of the thousands of people that took shelter in the hospital, that none of the medical staff or patients, _ever saw_. But even if the IDF _did_ engage combatants at the complex, once they had taken them out they still had an obligation to keep the hospital functional…something they didn’t do here _or at any of the other hospitals in the north._ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2181 "2023-12-04T04:42:35Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > My understanding of Banquet\_Bear’s post is he was referring specifically to airstrikes and artillery Why would you think that given the posts he’s already made in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2182 "2023-12-04T04:50:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Who is getting the aid we’re sending If there are no safe zones? Who’s “We”, here? I didn’t know [you were Rwandan](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/23/which-countries-have-sent-aid-to-gaza-so-far)… And …why does “getting aid” mean one is in a safe zone? And … the flow of aid [has stopped again](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/aid-trucks-gaza-stopped-israeli-campaign-resumes-sources-2023-12-01/), anyway, with the resumption of Israeli attacks in the South. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2183 "2023-12-04T04:57:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Racist Americans killing people in America has nothing to do with the IDF’s behavior. Do you _really_ believe that? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2184 "2023-12-04T05:11:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you _really_ believe that?. My point was that the incredibly despicable actions of the two American murderers mentioned don’t impact IDF doctrine or impact whether the IDF considers “all Palestinians to be fair game”; rereading through the back and forth I can see my post interpreted the other direction as well, so I’ll clarify that yes, the actions of those despicable murderers are certainly influenced by their consumed coverage of the situation in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2185 "2023-12-04T05:12:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > why does “getting aid” mean one is in a safe zone? Getting aid means they’re getting aid. There’s no hidden meaning behind it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2186 "2023-12-04T05:14:18Z")
Then why did _you_ link them getting aid with the existence of safe zones? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2187 "2023-12-04T05:26:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would expect them to take the tunnel express with everything they could carry prior to the hospital being breached. Tell me you think all Palestinians are Hamas without _telling_ me you think all Palestinians are Hamas… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2188 "2023-12-04T05:30:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There’s proof of the tunnels, too. “Tunnels” are not the multistory command-and-control bunker the IDF made those lovely animatics of, before the attack… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2189 "2023-12-04T15:53:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It would be less bad if Israel took purely defensive actions. Beefed up iron shield. Beefed up ground security at the border. They did this before October 7, and still got October 7. And were still accused by the Palestinians and their sympathizers of apartheid, genocide, oppression, Gaza being an “open air prison”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2190 "2023-12-04T20:34:39Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > They did this before October 7, and still got October 7. And were still accused by the Palestinians and their sympathizers of apartheid, genocide, oppression, Gaza being an “open air prison”, etc. …oh no! Israel were accused of doing things? We can’t, of course, discuss the specifics of what you’ve said here, because discussion of some of those terms aren’t allowed in this thread. But people _are allowed to accuse countries of doing things_. I can accuse my own country of crimes, I can accuse other countries of doing bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2191 "2023-12-04T20:55:09Z")
…more deliberate targeting of medical infrastructure: > [@WHO](#): > > Today, > > [@WHO](https://twitter.com/WHO) > > received notification from the Israel Defense Forces that we should remove our supplies from our two medical warehouses in southern Gaza within 24 hours, as ground operations will put them beyond use. We appeal to [#Israel](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Israel?src=hashtag_click) to withdraw the order, and take every possible measure to protect civilians and civilian infrastructure, including hospitals and humanitarian facilities. > With the hospital in the north out of action, and the war now moving to the south, we are now seeing the hospitals in the south start to reach breaking point, just two days after the pause. > [@](#): > > Due to the overwhelmed capacity of hospitals, not everybody can receive care. Massive influxes of patients have forced hospital staff to prioritize patients in life-threatening condition, and those whose lives are not immediately at risk may not be able to receive services. “We see patients with signs of infection and necrotic tissue, as they have not received a change of wound dressing in days and sometimes weeks,” said Claeys. > > … > > “The hospital has been receiving multiple severely injured patients nearly every hour,” said Chris Hook, MSF medical coordinator in Khan Younis. “There is no available space anymore—it really is a terrible situation. Everyone is genuinely worried about what will come next.” > > … > > As the focus of Israel’s aerial and ground offensives shifts to the south, people in some neighborhoods in central Gaza and Khan Younis have been ordered to evacuate toward Rafah, along the [Egyptian](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/where-we-work/egypt) border. **We have had to suspend our medical support to Martyrs and Beni Suhaila clinics because they are located in areas under the evacuation order.** > > … > > Gaining [access to medical care](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/medical-issues/access-medicines) and other essential services has become extremely challenging for people in the south of Gaza. Tight movement restrictions imposed by Israeli forces and the ongoing heavy shelling and bombing prevent people from seeking urgent and timely medical help, while also hindering our team’s capacity to respond. > > Back in Nasser Hospital, the number of displaced people has markedly increased again since last Saturday, with new shelters being set up in every corner of the parking lot. Many people are sleeping on the floor next to the medical facility. > **[Hospitals at breaking point in southern Gaza as bombing intensifies](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/hospitals-are-breaking-point-southern-gaza-bombing-intensifies)** > > Palestinians in need of medical care face overwhelmed hospitals, movement restrictions, and ongoing intense bombardment by Israeli forces. If things follow the pattern we’ve seen so far in this thread, what we will see over the next month are the hospitals in the south get overwhelmed, then over-taken, then shut down. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2192 "2023-12-04T21:09:01Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > It would be less bad if Israel took purely defensive actions. Beefed up iron shield. Beefed up ground security at the border. > > They did this before October 7, and still got October 7. And were still accused by the Palestinians and their sympathizers of apartheid, genocide, oppression, Gaza being an “open air prison”, etc. And we have speed limits and dividers on the highway and still sometimes people die in accidents. But we don’t shut down the roads. And while there have always been accusations against Israel, the nature and intensity of those accusations has changed a lot since the war got going. The main campus of a college i visit weekly was closed recently due to protests. That’s the first time that’s happened in at least two decades. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2193 "2023-12-04T21:10:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But people _are allowed to accuse countries of doing things_. I can accuse my own country of crimes, I can accuse other countries of doing bad things. My response was to puzzlegal who suggested that purely defensive measures were likely to be more beneficial to Israel than the military action that is currently underway. My point was that even with purely defensive actions, Israel’s relationship with the Palestinians had not benefited either in regard to the Palestinians’ views of Israel, nor in any material progress toward peaceful co-existence. In no way was I suggesting that you cannot make accusations (disagree with them though I might) against Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2194 "2023-12-04T21:12:52Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > My point was that even with purely defensive actions, …except Israel has never done just “purely defensive actions.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2195 "2023-12-04T21:13:52Z")
And Israel had made quite a lot of progress in normalizing relationships with their neighbors. I think that’s going to take a big hit. Further, i think that was the primary goal of the Oct 7 attacks, and Israel has taken the bait. 😢 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2196 "2023-12-04T21:17:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And we have speed limits and dividers on the highway and still sometimes people die in accidents. But we don’t shut down the roads. No, but those are _accidents_. If, to use motor vehicle fatalities as an arena, there was a sudden uptick in drunk driving fatalities, the response has been to raise the drinking age, lower the BAC threshold for prosecution of the offense, and stronger consequences for offenders. When human beings make choices to do something harmful, increasing the disincentive to make the harmful choice is the natural societal response. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And while there have always been accusations against Israel, the nature and intensity of those accusations has changed a lot since the war got going. The main campus of a college i visit weekly was closed recently due to protests. That’s the first time that’s happened in at least two decades. The intensity, probably, the nature, not really. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2197 "2023-12-04T21:19:09Z")
They’ve built walls. They’ve use Iron Dome and similar systems to shoot down rockets that are likely to hurt people. These are purely defensive actions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2198 "2023-12-04T21:22:01Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And Israel had made quite a lot of progress in normalizing relationships with their neighbors. I think that’s going to take a big hit. I wouldn’t necessarily be too sure about that. Saudi Arabia and others are normalizing relations with Israel because a whole host of incentives line up to make them do so, and because of the decline of Pan Arabism and the rise of Arabic Nationalism. Even before the recent normalization, there’s a reason why the Arab countries stopped going to war with Israel decades ago. Continued progress towards normalization could be a huge boon in accomplishing a two state solution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=103) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=105)