# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 105
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2199 "2023-12-04T21:22:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And Israel had made quite a lot of progress in normalizing relationships with their neighbors. I think that’s going to take a big hit. It might, it might not. Hamas, aligned as it is with Iran, is not sympatico with most of the neighbors who have either normalized or are considering normalizing relations with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2200 "2023-12-04T21:22:27Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > These are purely defensive actions. …I said _just_ purely defensive actions. They’ve taken defensive actions. But those didn’t happen in isolation. Even the wall involved the confiscation of Palestinian land. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2201 "2023-12-04T21:25:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Even the wall involved the confiscation of Palestinian land. Yes, that’s called a defensive perimeter. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2202 "2023-12-04T21:28:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Yes, that’s called a defensive perimeter. …one that in part involved the illegal (under international law) confiscation of Palestinian land. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2203 "2023-12-04T21:36:27Z")
Nonetheless, a purely defensive rather than offensive action. It prevented terrorist attacks from the OTs to Israel without any Israeli military or law-enforcement personnel laying hand or weapon on the would-be terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2204 "2023-12-04T22:09:15Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Nonetheless, a purely defensive rather than offensive action. …confiscating land isn’t a purely defensive action. > [@cmkeller](#): > > It prevented terrorist attacks from the OTs to Israel without any Israeli military or law-enforcement personnel laying hand or weapon on the would-be terrorist. It also took fertile Palestinian lands, and isolated some communities. I don’t think it’s accurate to call this _purely_ a defensive move. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2205 "2023-12-04T22:12:01Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Nonetheless, a purely defensive rather than offensive action. It prevented terrorist attacks from the OTs to Israel without any Israeli military or law-enforcement personnel laying hand or weapon on the would-be terrorist. Nope, sorry - taking someone else’s land to make a “defensive perimeter” is actually an aggressive and offensive (in more than one sense) action. As a counter-example - when the Trump administration wanted to build a wall for the Southern US border they didn’t steal land from Mexico, they built the wall sections on US land. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2206 "2023-12-04T22:43:03Z")
It’s not just building a “defensive perimeter” on Palestinian land—even if no structures were built past the actual border, there was an Israeli-declared death zone extending 100m or more into the Palestinian side: > **[IDF probes video of troops cheering as sniper shoots Palestinian near Gaza fence](https://web.archive.org/web/20180409173105/https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probes-video-of-troops-cheering-as-sniper-shoots-palestinian-near-gaza-fence/)** > > Arab MK decries footage, calls for sharpshooter, photographer to stand trial; army says it is looking into the incident NB as recent events proved, all those shootings and illegal no-go zones were pointless any way you look at it and not defensive in practice as Hamas was able to blow right past the border when it came down to it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2207 "2023-12-05T00:13:47Z")
Have you guys seen the rally in Philadelphia at Goldie, a restaurant owned by a Jewish man. This makes me sick. It takes my breath away. What they are doing to this man should be condemned and I wish it were illegal. > **[White House condemns ‘antisemitic’ rally outside Philadelphia falafel shop](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/04/white-house-philadelphia-protest-israel-restaurant-antisemitic)** > > Deputy press secretary says protest at Goldie, owned by American Israeli chef Michael Solomonov, ‘completely unjustifiable’ ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2208 "2023-12-05T00:31:22Z")
In the U.S. being a racist/Nazi/antisemite is _not_ illegal. Good solution is for locals to organize a counter-protest. Then again, 12 Nazis is hardly a real “protest” or “rally” and probably not even worthy of the attention. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2209 "2023-12-05T01:39:23Z")
…Human Rights Watch has reviewed satellite footage that shows “that orchards, greenhouses and farmland in northern Gaza have been razed.” > > [@](#): > > Satellite imagery reviewed by HRW shows that orchards, greenhouses and farmland in northern Gaza have been razed since the beginning of Israel’s ground invasion, compounding concerns of dire food insecurity and loss of livelihood. > > … > > But since mid-November, after Israeli forces took control of the area, satellite imagery shows that orchards, fields and greenhouses have been systematically razed, leaving sand and dirt. > > … > > Some plots were razed in a day. > > … > > As food systems collapse across Gaza, we are gravely concerned about the well-being of over 2 million Palestinians in Gaza who face hunger, food insecurity and loss of livelihood amid the Israeli blockade. The > > [@WFP](https://twitter.com/WFP) > > has warned of “the immediate possibility of starvation.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2210 "2023-12-05T02:57:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And Israel had made quite a lot of progress in normalizing relationships with their neighbors. I think that’s going to take a big hit. Egypt doesn’t want anything to do with Palestinians since they voted Hamas into power. The Saudis are no friend of Iran who supports Hamas. If this removes Hamas from power it will make the region a better place. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2211 "2023-12-05T06:04:28Z")
Now, now, _B\_B_, I’m sure there had to be a huge _Vault-Tec_-worthy bunker under those greenhouses. They had to go. Any suggestion of the IDF salting the earth in Gaza is just gaslighting. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2212 "2023-12-05T14:28:04Z")
[IDF losses](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwriiJYiL29liWkCXR9XNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Nj/RV=2/RE=1702994979/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fcollive.com%2f6-more-idf-soldiers-killed-in-gaza-bringing-death-total-to-78%2f/RK=2/RS=ZbnnS0flHQpADFD0CLbJPhkQYTE-) so far are 78 Total Palestinian losses are reportedly approaching 14000. If 5000 of those Palestinians were Hamas they must not have been shooting back in what was reported as close combat. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2213 "2023-12-05T16:02:22Z")
Well, if the IDF did want to destroy farm equipment, they could certainly ask you for advice on how to take out strawmen. No, I’m sure there’s no reason why an orchard in an active war zone might get destroyed other than intentional salted earth policy. Totally unimaginable for such a thing to happen. When this war ends and the Palestinians are still there (and still getting most of their food, water, and electricity from Israel) I am sure that we will hear some apologies from all of the people insisting that Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, right? We certainly won’t see the goalposts shift to explain why whatever Israel is doing then is still genocide. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2214 "2023-12-05T16:18:25Z")
If I may digress, I am curious what income Gaza produces that can pay for all the shipments necessary to feed, clothe and fuel the strip. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2215 "2023-12-05T16:21:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > When this war ends and the Palestinians are still there (and still getting most of their food, water, and electricity from Israel) I am sure that we will hear some apologies from all of the people insisting that Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, right? Goodness! What would lead anyone to think that? Let’s see, 14000 Palestinians killed at a cost to the IDF of about twice the monthly Auto death rate in Israel. Keep moving, nothing suspicious here. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2216 "2023-12-05T16:29:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If I may digress, I am curious what income Gaza produces that can pay for all the shipments necessary to feed, clothe and fuel the strip. Not much after it was destroyed in the latest war. I hope nobody is suggesting victims of war should be required to cough up hard currency as a condition for receiving food and water… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2217 "2023-12-05T16:32:13Z")
Not at all, I wonder how they paid for all of it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2218 "2023-12-05T16:44:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, I’m sure there’s no reason why an orchard in an active war zone might get destroyed other than intentional salted earth policy. Totally unimaginable for such a thing to happen. Go ahead, enlighten me. I mean, this is not the Somme or even Ukraine, it’s not army against army. So do enlighten me as to how an entire substantial farm gets destroyed unintentionally. Not hit by a stray round, not cratered by some mortars. Absolutely scorched to bare earth. > [@](#): > > When this war ends Feel free to start a thread then, and we can go over the situation of the surviving Gazans in as much detail as you like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=104) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=106)