# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 106
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2219 "2023-12-05T16:45:12Z")
Some of them used to work in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2220 "2023-12-05T16:46:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I mean, this is not the Somme or even Ukraine, it’s not army against army. > > So do enlighten me as to how an entire substantial farm gets destroyed unintentionally. You are right, this is not a conventional army against army conflict. It may indeed be possible that Israel just bombed the crap out of a farm because they are the evil empire, intentionally committing war crimes. It may also be the case that Hamas militants/terrorists were using the farm as cover, had a training camp set up there, or were storing munitions or other supplies intended to be used to kill Israeli soldiers or civilians. We simply don’t know what the case is at this point. Jumping to the conclusion that it MUST be a genocidal action is not helpful IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2221 "2023-12-05T16:52:55Z")
So they set up this training camp a week or more _after_ Oct 7, or started storing ammo stockpiles in open farm fields, during a time when Israel was bombing anything that moved. That about the sum of it? And why is this happening _after_ the IDF controls the area, not _during_ the fighting? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2222 "2023-12-05T17:06:33Z")
The IDF says it issued no such evacuation orders: > The Israeli army on Tuesday denied telling the World Health Organization to empty an aid warehouse in southern Gaza within 24 hours before ground operations in the area render it unusable. > > “The truth is that we didn’t ask you to evacuate the warehouses and we also made it clear (and in writing) to the relevant #UN representatives,” the Israeli defence ministry body responsible for Palestinian civilian affairs, COGAT said on X, formerly Twitter. > > “From a #UN official we would expect, at least, to be more accurate,” it added. > **[Israel army denies telling WHO to empty aid warehouse in southern Gaza](https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3243843/who-says-it-was-forced-move-medical-supplies-southern-gaza-warehouse)** > > WHO chief sounds alarm about an impending humanitarian crisis as Israeli forces expand their war against Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2223 "2023-12-05T17:17:36Z")
Prior to the conflict Some Gazans worked in Israel There was some light industry, fishing and agriculture in Gaza Some Gazans received personal transfers from relatives living outside the area Donations form the United Nations, the EU, and Arab states ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2224 "2023-12-05T17:29:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So they set up this training camp a week or more _after_ Oct 7, or started storing ammo stockpiles in open farm fields, during a time when Israel was bombing anything that moved. That about the sum of it? I DON’T KNOW. That’s the sum of it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2225 "2023-12-05T17:41:33Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > There was some light industry, fishing and agriculture in Gaza Only what Israel allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2226 "2023-12-05T18:30:43Z")
This feels like something out of a John Le Carre novel: > **[Traders earned millions anticipating Oct. 7 Hamas attack, study says](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/12/05/traders-earned-millions-anticipating-oct-7-hamas-attack-study-says/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAxNzUyNDAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzAzMTM0Nzk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDE3NTI0MDAsImp0aSI6IjU3MTUwYzlhLTk5NjQtNGNmYS1hMzUzLTNiNzI2YThiM2VhYiIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9idXNpbmVzcy8yMDIzLzEyLzA1L3RyYWRlcnMtZWFybmVkLW1pbGxpb25zLWFudGljaXBhdGluZy1vY3QtNy1oYW1hcy1hdHRhY2stc3R1ZHktc2F5cy8ifQ.OlKmElw6MLqORqbAsARfvLTkdPGo5yGG5RMzEZaSLxA&itid=gfta)** > > Traders earned millions anticipating Oct. 7 Hamas attack, study says I hope that the short-sellers can be identified and handled, either prosecutorially or, if appropriate, militarily. If one dead short-seller can save the lives of 10 civilians, let’s go. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2227 "2023-12-05T18:35:14Z")
Israel didn’t allow them to make rockets, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2228 "2023-12-05T18:58:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I DON’T KNOW. But does it sound even remotely plausible to you? These farms are being razed _after_ the IDF moves in. That tells me all I need to know. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2229 "2023-12-05T19:07:04Z")
It seems that [Israeli agriIculture](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-war-hamas-militants-farms-e112d5e3e6739a030db5c788dfe6e48e) has also taken a hit. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2230 "2023-12-05T19:27:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That tells me all I need to know. I’m happy for you that your mind is made up. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2231 "2023-12-05T19:40:03Z")
Weirdly, I suspect that the short selling in itself may not be illegal as a financial transaction. Insider trading rules are about non-public information regarding a specific company. But since the profits here would likely be used to fund terrorism, I suspect they will find a way to track down both the money and the short sellers. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2232 "2023-12-05T20:07:01Z")
I don’t think it mean much in the big picture. There were certainly documented crimes enough committed October 7th, but Haaretz have fact checked some of the stories. I read about it in a Danish news site, but here is their link to Haaretz > **[טבח חמאס גרר הפצת סיפורי זוועות שלא קרו במציאות. האמת קשה מספיק](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-12-03/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018c-2036-d21c-abae-76be08fe0000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=Android_Native&utm_campaign=Share)** > > הארץ I hope someone can read it and tell if it is true. Link to the Danish article > **[Avis afdækker opdigtede historier fra fremtrædende kilder efter terrorangreb...](https://nyheder.tv2.dk/udland/2023-12-04-avis-afdaekker-opdigtede-historier-fra-fremtraedende-kilder-efter-terrorangreb-mod-israel)** > > Efter terrorangrebet på Israel 7. oktober dukkede den ene grusomme historie efter den anden op i medierne. Nu har en israelsk avis faktatjekket dem. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2233 "2023-12-05T20:09:06Z")
HRW is a reputable org, I see no reason to doubt their reporting on the matter. And it’s not like [punitive destruction of property](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4274977.stm) hasn’t been official Israeli policy in the recent past, either. So yeah, I’m going with where the already known facts lead, rather than some Just So story of invisible arms stockpiles and post-invasion training camps. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2234 "2023-12-05T20:12:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > I DON’T KNOW. > > But does it sound even remotely plausible to you? > > These farms are being razed _after_ the IDF moves in. That tells me all I need to know. During the 2006 Lebanese war (a colossal fuck-up that directly led to the resignations of more than one Israeli general, including the chief of staff who engaged in selling stocks right before the offensive) IIRC there were reports of Israel shelling empty fields. It’s more suspicious if orchards in Gaza were razed _after_ the IDF actually moved in—perhaps the AI listed them as targets; what human could question that? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2235 "2023-12-05T20:14:49Z")
Exploding mines? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2236 "2023-12-05T20:15:08Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > The IDF says it issued no such evacuation orders: …the IDF are lying. They were lying when they said there was a command and control bunker at Al Shifa. They were lying when they said Indonesian Hospital was above a Hamas HQ, they were lying when the denied ordering people to leave Al Shifa within 24 hours, this entire war, as documented in this thread, demonstrates the industrial level of gas-lighting from the IDF. If the anonymous spox running the COGAT Twitter account want to come on the record, provide the writing that they claim they sent to the WHO, I’ll be willing to reconsider. But in the meantime: > [@](#): > > . > > [@WHO](https://twitter.com/WHO) > > has moved medical supplies from the warehouse in Khan Yunis to a smaller warehouse in Rafah. It required significant effort to make it happen in a short period of time. This resulted in a postponement of the planned delivery of medicines to > > [@MSF](https://twitter.com/MSF) > > and > > [@UNRWA](https://twitter.com/UNRWA) > > for their health facilities. The movement has already been delayed and will continue to challenge our deliveries to hospitals in [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click), amid widespread armed conflict and limited staff on the ground. We need a sustained and safe flow of medical aid to provide care to people in Gaza. > The medical supplies have been moved. Because in the real world the humanitarian agencies that are trying to keep people alive _don’t have time to play these stupid games the IDF keep wanting to play._ And what that means is medicine deliveries that were urgently needed have been delayed. That supplies have been moved further away from where they are needed. And everything is being driven further south. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2237 "2023-12-05T20:19:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Exploding mines? I don’t think it was even that targeted, but I would have to dig up some of the first-hand reports. E.g. here is an example of news from the time: [https://imra.org.il/story.php?id=28567](https://imra.org.il/story.php?id=28567) > Keinan [Israel Radio’s correspondent for the South] reported that defense sources expressed their view that the IDF response of firing artillery shells at empty fields has failed. So far Israel has fired some 1,600 shells - each costing NIS 4,000 for an overall cost of NIS 6.4 million. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2238 "2023-12-05T20:33:57Z")
Shooting at rocket launchers in 2006 that shoot and scoot? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=105) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=107)