# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 107
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2239 "2023-12-05T20:53:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I am sure that we will hear some apologies from all of the people insisting that Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, right? …I’m certainly not holding my breath waiting for an apology from anyone in this thread for being wrong about Al Shifa. I’m not holding my breath waiting for an apology for how people reacted when I said the IDF were targeting hospitals. From today: > [@](#): > > Terrified civilians are trapped inside the Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza as Israeli forces have encircled the medical facility, a senior official at the Ministry of Health tells Al Jazeera. > > More than 100 people have been killed in strikes close to the facility, the ministry said on Tuesday. > **[Northern Gaza hospital ‘overwhelmed by horror’ as Israeli army lays siege](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/northern-gaza-hospital-overwhelmed-by-horror-as-israeli-army-lays-siege)** > > Health official describes gunfire and artillery shells outside Kamal Adwan Hospital as hundreds are trapped inside. One by one they are being shut down. And it means in the few remaining hospitals they look like this: (link spoiled as it contains disturbing video of patients getting medical attention on the floor of the hospital) [https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1732106350170177579](https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1732106350170177579) This war is not targeting Hamas. It has targeted civilian infrastructure, housing complexes, government buildings, schools, farms, hospitals, refugee camps, churches, Mosques, universities. It has targeted innocent men, women, children. 6000 dead children is the latest estimate. People were driven from the north to the south, where they were told “it was safe.” And now the south is the frontline. _“It was a trap”_ they are saying. After nearly 60 days of the siege, that have effectively cut off all access to food, water, electricity, fuel, [OCHA are reporting overcrowded shelters and outbreaks of infections and diseases such as Hepatitis A.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/4/israel-asks-palestinians-to-evacuate-but-is-any-place-safe-in-gaza) Cindy McCain, director of the United Nations World Food Programme, has said Gaza is on the brink of famine. People that I’ve been following are now sick, some bed-ridden for days, because it isn’t just the bombs that are killing people. Disease, infection, starvation. We are at _that_ stage of the conflict now. > [@](#): > > On Sunday, Israel’s military designated about 20 percent of Khan Younis for immediate evacuation. The marked area houses 21 shelters and 50,000 internally displaced people, mostly from the north of Gaza, according to OCHA. > > Israel ordered the evacuation as it has expanded its bombardment, killing more than 800 Palestinians in Gaza in the past three days. Residents say they have been told to move to Rafah, which has also not been spared. > > Khan Younis was a designated safe space before the truce ended and 215,000 displaced Palestinians were sheltering in 34 UNRWA shelters in the city. Tens of thousands of displaced Palestinians took shelter in other places provided by the local authorities. > [@](#): > > Tzipi Hotovely, the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom, told Sky News that al-Mawasi, a narrow coastal Bedouin town towards the south, is a safe zone and is one of the shelters created with aid organisations. When Sky News correspondents visited al-Mawasi to investigate, they found no shelter arrangements such as agency tents or food kitchens. So no, you won’t be getting an apology from me. People are being driven from north to the south, civilian infrastructure being destroyed as they go. 60 days of siege with zero sign of that changing. The strategy and the tactics tell us exactly what the plan is. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2240 "2023-12-05T21:51:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I am sure that we will hear some apologies from all of the people insisting that Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, right? More likely we will hear a call for investigations of how a festival for 3500 people was permitted for a location 3.1 miles from the Gaza border. Especially in view of the fact that the IDF had information specifically identifying the site as a target for attack. At a minimum there should have been IDF security as a precaution. The IDF explanation that they didn’t think Hamas could carry out the plan is embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2241 "2023-12-05T23:13:08Z")
Terrific article by Hussein Ibish on Israel’s dilemma: > **[Israel’s Impossible Dilemma](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/12/israel-hamas-war-truce-fighting-resumes/676230/)** > > The IDF can hand Hamas either a Pyrrhic victory or a real one It’s a soft paywall – one way to get around is to use Textise, which can get around many paywalls by converting the website data directly into text (and ignoring pictures and other non-text data): [https://www.textise.net/showText.aspx?strURL=https%253A//www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/12/israel-hamas-war-truce-fighting-resumes/676230/#main-content](https://www.textise.net/showText.aspx?strURL=https%253A//www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/12/israel-hamas-war-truce-fighting-resumes/676230/#main-content) The main thrust of the article – Hamas is guaranteed to come out of this conflict with either a pyrrhic or actual victory. The pyrhhic victory (according to Ibish) – the IDF destroys most of Hamas’s tunnels and infrastructure, devastates its leadership, and then withdraws from Gaza, with Hamas in no shape to either govern or attack Israel again anytime soon. In this case, crucially, Gazans will have a chance to actually take stock of what Hamas accomplished: “The extent of Hamas’s responsibility for what’s happening in Gaza is vital for Palestinians to debate, but they can’t be expected to do so while Israel dominates their individual and collective amygdalae as the focus of anger, resentment, and raw terror.” But (Ibish argues) staying in Gaza, as some right-wing Israeli leaders advocate, would create a permanent state of war, and hand Hamas a huge gift of being the focus of resistance against a colonial Israel on the march. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2242 "2023-12-06T01:27:11Z")
Two questions 1. Are the Gazans angry with Hamas for the fact that Hamas’ attack has resulted in fire raining from the sky and thousands dead? Even if they are angry, do they feel safe in cursing Hamas’ actions, or would they be swiftly killed? 2. Do any of our Israeli & Jewish Dopers who are defending the actions of Israel and the IDF after Oct 7 see anything that the IDF did wrong since Oct 7? I see lots of defending the IDF’s actions. Have they done _nothing_ wrong in this war? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2243 "2023-12-06T01:34:25Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Have they done _nothing_ wrong in this war? Why, yes. They should withdraw, beg Qatar for their kidnapped citizens back, and wait for the next 1,200 to be murdered, raped and kidnapped. I believe Palestinians already hate Israelis. Recall when the woman’s body was displayed in the bed of a pickup truck. About everyone wanted to spit on or strike her body. No one asked anyone to stop. I think the Palestinians are taught in school to hate Jews, and most do. Kill hamas, and prevent new hamas members, or whatever terrorists grow out of it, from doing it again. ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2244 "2023-12-06T01:36:36Z")
Jewish non-Israeli, posted recently in defense of the IDF: I would be absolutely shocked if the IDF has done nothing wrong. I’m sure there have been a) innocent civilians killed due to misidentification of targets for bombardment – due to bad intelligence – due to insufficient diligence – possibly due to willful actions on the part of some specific people in charge b) innocent civilians killed by small arms fire due to – insufficient training that fails to overcome adrenaline (see the Israeli man who was killed after stopping the attack in Jerusalem a few days ago) – possibly some numbers of soldiers who murder as a deliberate hate crime It’s too early to know which happened, and in what proportion. Unfortunately most armed forces rarely release such information voluntarily, so getting that information vetted will be a long and arduous process. I don’t know of any war where this is not the case, which is (among other obvious reasons) why war should be a last resort. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2245 "2023-12-06T01:45:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Terrific article by Hussein Ibish on Israel’s dilemma: > > [Israel’s Impossible Dilemma - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/12/israel-hamas-war-truce-fighting-resumes/676230/) …from the article (from the bits I could read as the rest was paywalled) > [@](#): > > The next stages of the fighting seem clear. Israel will likely seize all of the significant aboveground urban areas in Gaza’s south, just as it did in the north. After that will come a major battle for control of Hamas’s extensive underground tunnel network, where most of the group’s fighters, leaders, equipment, and remaining hostages are presumed to be located. Ultimately, Israel may seek to destroy the tunnels themselves, perhaps by flooding them with seawater. The subtext here, and its an important one, is that the fight with Hamas _hasn’t even started yet_. All the death and destruction that we’ve seen so far in this war, all of the bombs on the schools and the refugee camps to “take out the tunnels”, those 6000 dead children. ALL of that, yet the “extensive underground tunnel network, where most of the group’s fighters, leaders, equipment, and remaining hostages are presumed to be located” _are still there_. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I think the Palestinians are taught in school to hate Jews, and most do. Kill hamas, and prevent new hamas members, or whatever terrorists grow out of it, from doing it again. > > > > > B.M. @ireallyhateyou There is plenty of _hate_ on both sides. But I’m not going to claim that most people in Israel “hate all Palestinians.” Nor do I think you should claim that “most Palestinians hate Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2246 "2023-12-06T01:47:29Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > Jewish non-Israeli, posted recently in defense of the IDF: I would be absolutely shocked if the IDF has done nothing wrong. I’m sure there have been > > a) innocent civilians killed due to misidentification of targets for bombardment > – due to bad intelligence > – due to insufficient diligence > – possibly due to willful actions on the part of some specific people in charge > b) innocent civilians killed by small arms fire due to > – insufficient training that fails to overcome adrenaline (see the Israeli man who was killed after stopping the attack in Jerusalem a few days ago) > – possibly some numbers of soldiers who murder as a deliberate hate crime > > It’s too early to know which happened, and in what proportion. Unfortunately most armed forces rarely release such information voluntarily, so getting that information vetted will be a long and arduous process. I don’t know of any war where this is not the case, which is (among other obvious reasons) why war should be a last resort Excellent and well written post, and very obviously true. And among other Israelis (or other people who don’tdo ridiculous things like question our right to exist or accuse us of genocide), it’s a heated discussion I have had many times, including during this conflict. But it’s hard to dwell on that here, under a barrage of ludicrous genocidal claims. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2247 "2023-12-06T01:59:25Z")
Thanks for the thoughtful response ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2248 "2023-12-06T02:16:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …from the article (from the bits I could read as the rest was paywalled) My post includes a way around the pay wall. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2249 "2023-12-06T04:31:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > About everyone wanted to spit on or strike her body. No one asked anyone to stop. It was scarcely a random flock of Palestinians, it was a flock of terrorists going to kill Israelis even if they had to die themselves. If you asked some random Palestinian, in September, I think you would find more of a spread, from resentment to hate. After the last two months, I would guess the feelings are closer to hate. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2250 "2023-12-06T08:54:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > [https://twitter.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610https://twitter.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610https://twitter.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610](https://twitter.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610https://twitter.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610https://twitter.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610) I really wish people would stop referencing Xtweets because X is, most of the time, not allowing readers to see them without signing in, and there’s no way in hell I’m giving that piece of shit Musk anything, including setting up an account on that dumpster fire. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2251 "2023-12-06T12:53:59Z")
Moderating: There’s a thread over in the pit. > [@Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/217): > > In Gaza. Not so much in Israel, right? This is getting too personal for MPSIMS. This is not a place for posters to attack each other. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2252 "2023-12-06T15:23:46Z")
Fuck Twitter. Here is the _right_ way to view such links, though, if you must: [Hedi Viterbo (@HediViterbo): "Israel says that #Palestinians brainwash their children. But what does Israel teach its own children? A thread 🧵 1/20 #Palestine #Gaza #WestBank" | nitter](https://nitter.net/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2253 "2023-12-06T16:11:32Z")
BBC, CBS and AP websites are reporting yesterday as the heaviest day of ground fighting in the 55 days of the war. The ‘ground fighting’ consisted of 200+ air strikes. The highest number of IDF casualties I could find yesterday was 78, today it’s 88. A loss of ten in a heavy day of fighting? With IDF personnel in close proximity to 200+ airstrikes a loss of ten is close to what you would expect as collateral damage. The only images I get of this conflict show destruction by air attack. No burning Israeli tanks or troop carriers along the route of march. No exchange of fire between opposing forces. No captured enemy. No aid stations for IDF wounded. The Israeli ground operation is herding the Gaza population into refugee camps, and destroying their civilian infrastructure behind them. I fear there will soon be an ‘accidental’ bombing of one of the concentration camps. The propagandist image of this ‘war’ is of a military force moving a skirmish line through territory defended by an enemy. That doesn’t appear to be the case. The military is decimating a civilian population with a loss rate to itself that approaches the death rate due to auto accidents. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2254 "2023-12-06T16:28:24Z")
It’s not hard to find images and videos of ground troops engaging in small arms combat. There is some in the embedded video here: [Israel-Hamas war live updates: Fierce battles inside Khan Younis in southern Gaza (nbcnews.com)](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna128278) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2255 "2023-12-06T16:35:24Z")
The body was paraded down the streets of Gaza; it was a random selection of Palestinians who spat on and struck the corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2256 "2023-12-06T16:46:12Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The body was paraded down the streets of Gaza; it was a random selection of Palestinians who spat on and struck the corpse What you mean is that it was a crowd of Palestinian civilians (IE not members of Hamas or other militant groups). They weren’t a _random selection_ though, it’s a self selected sample if those Palestinians who heard what was happening and decided to rush over. Presumably there were also many Palestinians who heard what was happening and stayed home to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2257 "2023-12-06T17:22:08Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > There is some in the embedded video here: Thanks for the link. There were a few frames showing solders firing into ruined buildings. They were not taking cover so there doesn’t appear to be any return fire. Most of the video covered displacement of citizens. The propaganda has moved to an ‘investigation’ of rape during the oct 7 attack. There was perhaps 10 seconds showing soldiers and 4 minutes of a private organization investigating what it believes is evidence of rape associated with Oct 7. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2258 "2023-12-06T17:24:21Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The propaganda has moved to an ‘investigation’ of rape during the oct 7 attack. There was perhaps 10 seconds showing soldiers and 4 minutes of a private organization investigating what it believes is evidence of rape associated with Oct 7. The global response to Hamas’ rapes has been absolutely atrocious. “All Lives Matter” level bullshit. Please do not minimze what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=106) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=108)