# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 110
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2299 "2023-12-07T16:08:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I believe that you are simply updating your beliefs to something that could conceivably fit the new facts Well yes. Doesn’t that describe the process in which we are all involved? Being willing to to update our beliefs to match facts in evidence. The process is not 100% efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2300 "2023-12-07T16:23:49Z")
According to that USGS map, the majority of those gas fields are in the Med. Israel/Egypt already completely control the waters off of the coast of he Gaza strip since 2007 as part of the blockade. There’s absolutely no reason to invade Gaza itself as a pretense to access these fields. As conspiracy theories go, this isn’t even a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2301 "2023-12-07T16:24:56Z")
Maybe Crane just has oil on his mind because it’s the first night of Hanukkah. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2302 "2023-12-07T16:40:44Z")
Moderating: > [@Crane](#): > > This could explain the current Israeli push to depopulate Gaza: > > From GPT4 > > “The Levant Basin is a large area in the eastern Mediterranean Sea known for its significant fossil fuel reserves. It has been a point of contention between Israel and Palestine, with impacts on energy independence and economic prospects for both. The 2010 United States Geological Survey highlighted the basin’s potential, estimating substantial oil and gas reserves. Key fields identified within Palestinian territories, like the Gaza Marine offshore and Meged field inland, hold promise for energy needs and export revenues. However, geopolitical tensions and restrictions, particularly Israeli control and a blockade on Gaza, have hampered resource exploitation and economic growth for Palestinians. The region’s complex legal and political landscape continues to influence the development and utilization of these energy resources.” While some speculation is to be expected in a discussion thread, this and several follow-up posts about a natural gas field near Gaza have become a hijack. Please drop the topic. If you feel there’s more that needs to be said about this gas deposit or whether it could be a motive for Israel’s action in its the war against Hamas, please start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2303 "2023-12-07T17:23:22Z")
[IDF photo of intensive combat in Gaza](https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2023/12/9_5-640x400.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2304 "2023-12-07T18:01:28Z")
A random link to a photo of soldiers that doesn’t show them fighting really isn’t evidence of anything, and doesn’t add to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2305 "2023-12-07T18:04:42Z")
Especially since no one except Crane had made the claim that this is a photo of “intensive combat”. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2306 "2023-12-07T18:08:40Z")
Some good news from the original Nova festival terror attack. The photo of the lady running in a red shawl did survive. I always cringed seeing the fear on her face on news sites. I guess that knee brace helped with her running. She was very fortunate to survive. > **[Nova festival survivor seen in haunting image recounts moment Hamas killed...](https://nypost.com/2023/12/07/news/nova-festival-survivor-seen-in-haunting-image-recounts-moment-hamas-killed-her-friends/)** > > Vlada Patapov, the subject of the haunting photograph of a young woman in a red jacket fleeing the attack at the Nova festival on Oct. 7, has come forth to share the story of how she survived. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2307 "2023-12-07T18:12:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > doesn’t show them fighting That is the point. There are no pictures of intense combat except by one sided air attack on civilians. The soldiers in all the photos I have found are standing and not seeking cover. There are no photos of wounded IDF and the reported casualty rate is insignificant relative to the number of civilians killed. There is no evidence of intensive ground combat. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2308 "2023-12-07T18:14:51Z")
Go to youtube and search “israel hamas combat” and you’ll find video of ground troops exchanging small arms fire. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2309 "2023-12-07T18:27:38Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > Go to youtube and search “israel hamas combat” Thanks that is interesting. Most of the combat shown was Hamas trying to prove it had destroyed an Israeli tank. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2310 "2023-12-07T18:48:19Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Most of the combat shown was Hamas trying to prove it had destroyed an Israeli tank. Israel has lost about two dozen tanks in Gaza so far. > **[Israel's war with Hamas shows why even 50 years of upgrades can't make tanks...](https://www.businessinsider.com/israels-war-with-hamas-shows-why-tanks-are-not-invulnerable-2023-12)** > > Israel's tank losses to Hamas, just like tank losses 50 years ago or in Ukraine now, stoke renewed debate about the role of tanks in modern warfare. The Merkava is an extremely specifically designed main battle tank. Unlike other nations’ MBT’s, the Merkava can double as a troop carrier. It isn’t as heavily armed as an Abrams or a Leopard, but it’s very heavily armored, with a focus on protecting the troops inside. Israeli tanks are also protected by a countermeasure system, which fires what is essentially a shotgun blast of explosively propelled pellets at oncoming RPGs, in order to detonate them early; there are even more fail-safes, like hanging steel chains that cause RPGs to go off a few inches from the armor. The IDF also deployed a newly Despite all this, the IDF _has_ lost quite a few tanks so far, and even more armored fighting vehicles. A tank was destroyed and a number of AFVs were captured and taken into Gaza on Oct 7, as well. The Hamas terrorists taking videos of their attacks on IDF tanks don’t tend to stick around filming long enough to verify a kill. (Or maybe that’s survivorship bias, and those who do just never get a chance to upload their video…) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2311 "2023-12-07T19:01:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel has lost about two dozen tanks in Gaza so far. Thanks for the link. I’m amazed that a shoulder fired RPG could get passed the active armor on an Israeli tank. One frame from a video showed a drone centered above an armored vehicle. That looks more like sophisticated artillery than hand held weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2312 "2023-12-07T19:18:13Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I’m amazed that a shoulder fired RPG could get passed the active armor on an Israeli tank One shoulder fired RPG is unlikely to get through all of an Israeli tank’s defenses. But it is much easier to field guys with RPGs than main battle tanks, and if you shoot enough rockets some will get through. > [@Crane](#): > > One frame from a video showed a drone centered above an armored vehicle. That looks more like sophisticated artillery than hand held weaponry. It’s actually the same “weaponry” - an anti-tank shell. It’s simply dropped from a standard commercial drone, into the open hatch of a tank. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2313 "2023-12-07T19:23:44Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Thanks for the link. I’m amazed that a shoulder fired RPG could get passed the active armor on an Israeli tank. One frame from a video showed a drone centered above an armored vehicle. That looks more like sophisticated artillery than hand held weaponry. Most likely a shoulder fired anti-tank weapon is used to take out tanks. The newer ones fire an armor piercing shell down as it flies over. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2314 "2023-12-07T19:48:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s actually the same “weaponry” - an anti-tank shell. It’s simply dropped from a standard commercial drone, into the open hatch of a tank. If you mean Wal-Mart drones, they are border line on loading. How much explosive would they have to carry? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2315 "2023-12-07T19:50:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Most likely a shoulder fired anti-tank weapon is used to take out tanks. The newer ones fire an armor piercing shell down as it flies over. Got a link. I’m not arguing just interested. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2316 "2023-12-07T19:52:00Z")
I’m surprised they haven’t fitted cages over the hatches to prevent munitions from entering an open hatch, particularly after the use of drones against tanks in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2317 "2023-12-07T20:00:14Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > How much explosive would they have to carry? An PRG round with a rocket weighs like 6 lbs, and you don’t need the rocket if you’re dropping the round from a drone. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’m surprised they haven’t fitted cages over the hatches to prevent munitions from entering an open hatch, particularly after the use of drones against tanks in Ukraine They’ve done exactly that. [![](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2023/10/16/TELEMMGLPICT000353326358_16974686212250_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq-IWLY18X4-CzgyIcjLEAj_SVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpeg) ](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2023/10/16/TELEMMGLPICT000353326358_16974686212250_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq-IWLY18X4-CzgyIcjLEAj_SVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpeg) The Russians tried to deploy something similar against Ukranian fielded Javelin missiles; that obviously didn’t work. But against a drone dropping an AT round, it’s pretty effective. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2318 "2023-12-07T20:29:39Z")
Thanks. Patton would not be happy with them bunched up like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=109) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=111)