# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 115
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2399 "2023-12-10T15:52:46Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Actually I noticed similar distinctions in Al Jazeera. But, terrorist is incorrect. Terrorists attack for political impact and do not hold territory. That might apply to Oct 7 but not Gaza. The folks in Gaza are defending home ground. They’re the same folks - part of the same organization, under the same command. If they were terrorists on October 7, they’re terrorists now; if they’re Gazan soldiers now, they were Gazan soldiers on October 7. So which are they? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2400 "2023-12-10T16:14:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Gazan soldiers on October 7. They were Gazan soldiers. Terrorist is a propaganda term. Let me pose a question - do the Palestinians as a group have the right to defend themselves? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2401 "2023-12-10T16:24:51Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > They were Gazan soldiers. Terrorist is a propaganda term. In your view, are are all Jewish babies and children legitimate military targets, or only Israeli Jewish babies and children? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2402 "2023-12-10T16:27:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In your view, are are all Jewish babies and children legitimate military targets, or only Israeli Jewish babies and children? No more so than Palestinian women and children. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2403 "2023-12-10T16:27:47Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > They were Gazan soldiers. Terrorist is a propaganda term. So this war right now, it’s between Israel and and the Palestinians - not between Israel and a terrorist organization in Gaza. Good. We agree. > [@Crane](#): > > Let me pose a question - do the Palestinians as a group have the right to defend themselves? Sure, as does Israel. Let’s see who does it better. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2404 "2023-12-10T16:30:23Z")
That wasn’t the question. You said the Hamas attackers who purposefully targeted women, children, and babies for kidnapping, rape, and death, are “Gazan soldiers”, not terrorists. Soldiers attack legitimate military targets. Once again, do you believe all Jewish babies and children are legitimate military targets, or only Israeli Jewish babies and children? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2405 "2023-12-10T16:34:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That wasn’t the question. I answered the post. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2406 "2023-12-10T16:38:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So this war right now, it’s between Israel and and the Palestinians - not between Israel and a terrorist organization in Gaza. Good. We agree. Is this your position, @Alessan, that Israel is at war with all Palestinians, rather than at war with Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2407 "2023-12-10T16:39:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sure, as does Israel. Let’s see who does it better. Good point. The problem is the participants have different definitions of victory. It will be difficult to compare the results. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2408 "2023-12-10T16:46:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is this your position, @Alessan, that Israel is at war with all Palestinians, rather than at war with Hamas? Israel has been at war with the Palestinians since 1947. What’s happening now is just the next phase. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2409 "2023-12-10T16:50:09Z")
But who? There’s no Palestinian state, or real government. Are you at war with the entire ethnic group? EDIT: It’s troubling to hear this from you. If this is mainstream Israeli opinion, then it makes me think Israel has pretty much zero chance of real security (which would require peace) for the next few decades, if not longer. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2410 "2023-12-10T17:31:15Z")
I’m reminded of a quote from a WW2 memoir (Paul Fussell?). Parphrased from memory “Our leaders told us our fight was with the Nazis, not with the German people. But the whole time we were fighting, except for a brief period when we engaged with a waffen SS unit, I never saw a single Nazi. All the people I was shooting at were ordinary Germans.” I suppose you could reply that at least they were soldiers, but the people in Dresden and Hamburg weren’t. Total war is a thing and has been since at least the Napoleanic times. Nations go to war. Everyone is involved. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2411 "2023-12-10T17:34:53Z")
“Never saw a single Nazi”. How could one identify a Nazi by looking at him, or a Democrat or Republican for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2412 "2023-12-10T17:45:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But who? There’s no Palestinian state, or real government. Are you at war with the entire ethnic group? > > EDIT: It’s troubling to hear this from you. If this is mainstream Israeli opinion, then it makes me think Israel has pretty much zero chance of real security (which would require peace) for the next few decades, if not longer. The government was real enough to launch a terroristic invasion of Israel. It seems straightforward to me to say that while Hamas is the governing power in Palestine (here meaning Gaza), then Israel is at war with Palestine. Just as when the Nazis ruled Germany, the Allies were at war with Germany. You can only fight a war against reality, not against wishful thinking that an evil regime is _not_ in control. When Hamas is _removed_ from power, and Gaza becomes occupied territory controlled (at least temporarily) by Israeli forces, then of course the situation is completely different. But fighting this war is the only way to get from here to there. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2413 "2023-12-10T17:46:18Z")
I don’t recall reading that in any Paul Fussell, but do remember it from Bill Mauldin’s _Up Front._ [![](https://whosouttherecomics.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/mauldincrittera-1.jpg?w=768) ](https://whosouttherecomics.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/mauldincrittera-1.jpg?w=768) For me, this cartoon always sumed up what war does to people ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2414 "2023-12-10T18:00:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But who? There’s no Palestinian state, or real government. Are you at war with the entire ethnic group? > > EDIT: It’s troubling to hear this from you. If this is mainstream Israeli opinion, then it makes me think Israel has pretty much zero chance of real security (which would require peace) for the next few decades, if not longer. What did you think was going on here? It’s an ethnic conflict, like so many others around the world. I don’t know how else to define it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2415 "2023-12-10T18:03:03Z")
But Palestine isn’t Gaza. Gaza is Gaza. Palestine (or the Palestinian territories – which isn’t a state entity) consists of Gaza + the West Bank. Is Israel at war with the WB? Just with Gaza (or Gazans as a whole)? I would hope that Israel is at war with Hamas, but NOT with Gazans as a whole. If they’re just at war with Hamas, then hopefully they can defeat Hamas and then withdraw, and allow the Gazans some say in determining their future. If they’re at war with the entirety of the people of Gaza, then that seems like a war that will last forever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2416 "2023-12-10T18:04:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What did you think was going on here? It’s an ethnic conflict, like so many others around the world. I don’t know how else to define it. Then ISTM that Oct 7th was just more of the same – the normal course of business. And will be going forward, again and again and again. ISTM that, if you don’t want to see Oct 7th again and again and again, Israeli policy will need a significant paradigm shift. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2417 "2023-12-10T18:09:13Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > When Hamas is _removed_ from power It’s popularity is likely to increase 10 fold. Thousands of families now have a personal stake in the game because Israel has torn from them loved ones, property, life style, home, even a place to ‘be’. They will have nothing left in them but a burning dedication to the destruction of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2418 "2023-12-10T18:12:59Z")
I dunno. Someone might say that attacking Israel ain’t doing a whole lot for anyone. It’d be good to find that person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=114) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=116)