# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 117
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2439 "2023-12-10T19:26:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve been extremely vague. I thought I was very plain with my US example. Israel needs to stop the bullshit and take a stand. The state of Israel is a political entity that was created by the UN. It’s legal borders were established at that time. If now it intends to establish a greater Israel that incorporates the West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza then do it and defend those borders. If Israel wants to maintain an Apartheid state then do so and let the world react. The quibbling over who hit whom first and who is a soldier and who is a terrorist is total bullshit. It is a civil war and Israel has to resolve it. If there is no resolution then Israel may fail. Israel cannot fight $750 rockets with $75000 counter measures forever. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2440 "2023-12-10T19:31:02Z")
So there’s still no cite for the suicide bombers that was taken as fact and discussed as true, even now? Of course, that came from a poster that admits wanting to use biological warfare on women and children, even conceding it’s an immoral action. Hamas has targeted women and children, killing roughly one military/police target per two civilians in an atrocious terrorist attack. The IDF has targeted military personnel, killing roughly two civilians per military target - but at ten times the numbers, along with widespread homelessness and terror. How exactly are the people of Gaza to view the IDF and their supporters? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2441 "2023-12-10T19:31:24Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel needs to stop the bullshit and take a stand. The state of Israel is a political entity that was created by the UN. It’s legal borders were established at that time. If now it intends to establish a greater Israel that incorporates the West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza then do it and defend those borders. If Israel wants to maintain an Apartheid state then do so and let the world react. It shouldn’t do either of those things. Israel, its neighbors, and the international community should work to empower the peacemakers within Israel and within the Palestinian territories to, ultimately, create a Palestinian state alongside Israel as peaceful neighbors. That’s a monumental task, of course, and I don’t know exactly how to get there. But that’s the only foreseeable path towards peace. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2442 "2023-12-10T19:32:40Z")
I agree completely. That is a resolution. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2443 "2023-12-10T19:42:40Z")
It’s sad that so many people _want_ or are _eager_ for Israel to commit atrocities. Either because it reinforces their anti-Jewish worldviews or because they want Palestinians to get cleaned from the face of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2444 "2023-12-11T02:54:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Manifest destiny was openly pursued. Half of Mexico was stolen without blinking. Hell, they stole all of mine! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2445 "2023-12-11T03:34:11Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > How exactly are the people of Gaza to view the IDF and their supporters? People who their government should avoid killing, raping and kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2446 "2023-12-11T04:08:19Z")
You still refuse to acknowledge Gazans haven’t had a say in their government in fifteen years? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2447 "2023-12-11T04:13:53Z")
Yes. You don’t need an election to remove a politician. But going back 15 years, if you elect a terrorist organization nothing good will come of it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2448 "2023-12-11T18:00:11Z")
Refugees are returning to their home areas just as they did in WW2. There may be as many as 30,000 on the [al-Shifa hospital grounds](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrNPmhSSXdlFwQANKRXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1703525970/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.scmp.com%2fnews%2fworld%2fmiddle-east%2farticle%2f3244617%2fliving-hell-ruins-al-shifa-gazas-largest-hospital/RK=2/RS=ox8NyQB2yxP9V1bPwrLa5Ki4lhU-). Strategic bombing against civilians is strategically ineffective (unless your goal is to murder a lot of civilians). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2449 "2023-12-13T12:19:14Z")
Planned ambushes in Gaza have always been a major concern. This is horrible. 😢 A multi-layered ambush designed to kill the backups coming to rescue the injured. The high ranking IDF were probably in that last group. Trying to save their men. Hamas has been planning their defensive lines and ambushes for years. Link [Gaza: Israeli commanders among nine soldiers killed in Hamas ambush | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/13/gaza-israel-soldiers-killed-hamas-ambush) > [@](#): > > In one of the most lethal incidents for Israeli soldiers during the two-month long war in Gaza, Greenberg and several of his senior officers were killed in fighting involving improvised explosive devices, while they were fired on from buildings. > > Among the dead, announced by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on Wednesday, were another colonel, three majors, and several members of a combat rescue force. > > A notice in Hebrew posted by the Golani Brigade described the ambush which occurred near Shejaiya’s market. > > “While carrying out searches to clear buildings in the heart of the Shejaiya Kasbah, considered a crowded area overflowing with terror targets, there was a large explosion in one of the building and several soldiers from the 13th battalion were wounded.” > > According to accounts of the battle, the soldiers were approaching a building when they first came under fire from an upper storey, initiating a fire fight in which they were struck by grenades and an explosive charge severely injuring four who were cut off from the rest of the soldiers. > > As soldiers went to help the first group, amid fears they may be dragged into a tunnel, a second blast hit them. A third group also trying to approach to evacuate the wounded was also hit by an explosion ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2450 "2023-12-13T13:58:08Z")
Excellent article in the [Atlantic](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-is-dangerously-dependent-on-technology/ar-AA1lqU5A?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=0e728809a243463f9fb50cc2fd47a341&ei=73) this morning explains the IDF failure on Oct 7, ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2451 "2023-12-13T14:19:05Z")
Thank you for the link. Excellent cautionary tale for all countries. They still need real eyes with boots on the ground and drones to verify the digital security surveillance. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2452 "2023-12-13T15:34:48Z")
Thanks for the link. FYI, the author of the article. Matti Friedman, has written several good books about modern Israel, including a memoir of his time as an IDF soldier in Lebanon. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2453 "2023-12-13T15:48:10Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > memoir of his time as an IDF soldier in Lebanon Thanks - I ordered the book ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2454 "2023-12-13T16:09:25Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > Matti Friedman I knew the name sounded familiar. He also wrote this **excellent** article on how the media frames the Arab-Israeli conflict, from his time working for the AP. > **[Journalistic Duty in Israel Palestine News](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide)** > > What are the duties of a journalist in reporting Israel Palestine news? Learn about journalistic responsibility in framing political news. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2455 "2023-12-13T21:22:17Z")
…Gazans are now starving. That shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone here. After all, we talked about the siege at the start of the war, and how important it was to “keep the rockets out.” We are now over 60 days into the siege. Food, water, medical supplies, fuel have all slowed to a trickle. Starvation, disease, infection. And now…flooding. > **[Parts of Gaza flooded after heavy rains, exacerbating humanitarian emergency...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/dec/13/parts-of-gaza-flooded-after-heavy-rains-exacerbating-humanitarian-emergency-video)** > > The rainwater soaked and damaged the tents of people already displaced by Israeli offensives, exacerbating the territory's humanitarian crisis From the latest OCHA flash update: > **[United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-67)** > > Between the afternoons of 11 and 12 December, 217 Palestinians were killed and another 455 were injured, according to the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza. Overall, according to the MoH in Gaza, between 7 October and 12 December afternoon, at least... 18,205 Palestinians have been killed so far since the 7th October. 70% of whom are said to be women and children. 50,100 injured. Many more still missing, buried under the ruble. Bombing continues all over Gaza, including the city of Rafah. The deliberate destruction of infrastructure continues, with the blowing up of a UNRWA school through controlled explosives. The MHO have documented 360,000 cases of infectious diseases in shelters. They believe the actual number to be higher than this. WHO reports that cases of meningitis, jaundice, impetigo, chickenpox and other upper respiratory tract infections have been recorded, in Rafah diarrhoea and influenza have been reported to be spreading, and there are 1500 cases of intestinal disease due to food shortages. The IDF have taken down another hospital, Kamal Adwan. After three days of siege the IDF raided, arrested the director, and transported 70 medical staff to an unknown location. The remaining staff, patients and carers were ordered into one building and the rest were evacuated where, as of the time of the flash report, were left without electricity, water and food. Only the bare minimum amount of fuel and gas are being allowed into Gaza to prevent the collapse of critical services. According to the Palestinian Journalist Syndicate: the death toll of Palestinian journalists and media workers is now 81. 296 medics have been killed, 32 Civil Defense workers, 134 UNRWA staff and 1 WHO staff have all been killed since October 7th. As of 11 December, almost 1.9 million of the 2.3 million Gazans are estimated to be internally displaced, some have been displaced multiple times. 1.3 million of these people are registered and staying in UNRWA shelters. On average, they are sheltering nine-times their intended capacity. Only 11 out of 36 hospitals are “partially functional and able to admit new patients, although services are limited.” Hospitals are also providing shelter to thousands of displaced people. Andy McDonald, a British MP, reports from his meeting with Professor Ghassan Abu Sitta. Selected quotes below: > > [@](#): > > On one night alone, the doctor performed six amputations on children. Due to Israel’s blockade on medical supplies, he had to use vinegar and washing up liquid to sterilise wounds. With no morphine available, he had to use paracetamol for painkillers after surgery. > > He told us of a young girl whose legs had been cut to pieces by shrapnel from an Israeli warhead. He described the horrifying screams she let out as he had to scrub her wounds using this mix and without painkillers, so as to prevent infection and save her dying from sepsis. From the letter from UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini to the UN General Assembly President Mr. Dennis Francis: [![](https://ucacea2bfff931d099b2a27b4242.previews.dropboxusercontent.com/p/thumb/ACGk2IeLcpuMxx8vssjBi48DLTV7rNyRkv_CVHCNqf1_0V5LeylC2ecM0Mo2Y112XmTW764NyS6C1otfjVnxxLcaenz7LGUxj0eMyQDm6PgdxJ5JEgpITjA6zFbSovfrwA9sU0iYcSErs0kbn1p50nRXe6I-arhgrPHpobniqjorMDqEJNMnA_FMgzMZqrWjCGpy9MDTe8B3inw8CR-p3UwWd7nQNWUrnZRw4THJP8b13Bqrbk81ER2mfQfP0Q8chgwmW4BBkYhLg_Nbau3Ccdn8MWk_Z7vIi3ynyVWamUryledkxgfk_HETj-m4l8Z5v_xhw1MJTOa8q7Ddp46IMMp9hmjSAbtPyioZmySxC7P6Ig/p.png) ](https://ucacea2bfff931d099b2a27b4242.previews.dropboxusercontent.com/p/thumb/ACGk2IeLcpuMxx8vssjBi48DLTV7rNyRkv_CVHCNqf1_0V5LeylC2ecM0Mo2Y112XmTW764NyS6C1otfjVnxxLcaenz7LGUxj0eMyQDm6PgdxJ5JEgpITjA6zFbSovfrwA9sU0iYcSErs0kbn1p50nRXe6I-arhgrPHpobniqjorMDqEJNMnA_FMgzMZqrWjCGpy9MDTe8B3inw8CR-p3UwWd7nQNWUrnZRw4THJP8b13Bqrbk81ER2mfQfP0Q8chgwmW4BBkYhLg_Nbau3Ccdn8MWk_Z7vIi3ynyVWamUryledkxgfk_HETj-m4l8Z5v_xhw1MJTOa8q7Ddp46IMMp9hmjSAbtPyioZmySxC7P6Ig/p.png) > **[Letter From UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini to the UN General...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/letter-unrwa-commissioner-general-philippe-lazzarini-un-general-assembly-president-mr-dennis-francis)** > > News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 7 Dec 2023 by UNRWA Israel started their offensive against Gaza with an illegal siege: they effectively stopped all food, water, medical supplies, fuel from reaching the civilian population. Collective punishment. A war crime. And 60 days later, that siege continues. The siege has bought Gaza on, to quote Cindy McCain, to the brink of famine. Disease. Infections. Covid. The putrid stench of rotting flesh fills the air. Hundreds, possibly thousands of bodies still trapped under the rubble. The situation on the ground, as described by UN officials, is apocalyptic. One toilet for 700 people. Simple everyday things, like menstruation products, are impossible to find. At least 25 women forced to give birth every day in these unsterile conditions. Wounds left to fester. Children having limbs amputated. Every single day. No end in sight. Nineteen hospitals in Gaza are no longer operational. We can argue till the cars come home about Al Shifa. But that still leaves eighteen other hospitals that were also forced to shut down. And they were all shut down in the same, methodical, systematic way. They were surrounded by the IDF, who laid siege. What few supplies that were making its way through the blockade were shut down. No food. No water. No medical supplies. No fuel. Sometimes they were shot at. Other times they had bombs dropped on them. Then the people sheltering in the hospital, the medical staff and the patients were forced to leave. Then the infrastructure and medical equipment were destroyed by the IDF. This has been a very deliberate campaign. Schools, shelters, government buildings, churches, Mosques, apartment complexes. They have all been targeted. Universities burned out. The Central Archives were destroyed last week, containing documents dating more than 150 years. Deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure. Nowhere in Gaza is safe. They were told to move south. “Humanitarian corridors” were set up. They knew it was a trap. But many moved south anyway. Because they had no choice. And now the south is the frontline. And this is where we are now. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2456 "2023-12-14T01:09:57Z")
Israeli ambassador to the UK " ‘Absolutely no’ chance of a Palestinian state". So to all of the Israeli supporters here, is the rest of the world supposed to stand back and watch you wipe Palestine off the map? [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/israeli-envoy-absolutely-no-chance-of-a-palestinian-state/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-envoy-absolutely-no-chance-of-a-palestinian-state/) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2457 "2023-12-14T01:14:35Z")
Boy, i can’t tell what the hell she even wants to see. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2458 "2023-12-14T01:39:10Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > So to all of the Israeli supporters here, is the rest of the world supposed to stand back and watch you wipe Palestine off the map? Note that I disagree with this lady and with Netanyahu, and that what I personally want to see is him removed from power and replaced. But can you please quote the part of your article that supports this statement? > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > is the rest of the world supposed to stand back and watch you wipe Palestine off the map? I see absolutely nothing in the quoted article to support this assertion (and I’m pretty annoyed that I once again have to defend members of Netanyahu’s odious administration against allegations that are _somehow, unbelievably_ more odious than their _actual odious policies_.) > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Boy, i can’t tell what the hell she even wants to see I thought it was pretty clear, despite the poorly written article: > [@](#): > > “Obviously, we’re not interested in governing the Palestinians, but we are interested in making sure that Gaza won’t become another terror hub,” she says. > > “We will demilitarize Gaza… and we believe that together with our allies and with the moderate Arab countries we can build a better future,” Hotovely claims. She wants to destroy Hamas and then hand Gaza over to an international coalition of Israeli allies and Arab states. Which isn’t a terrible idea, with two caveats: 1. I think you do that explicitly _as part of a path to_ a two state solution, and you make that clear now 2. As I’ve lamented before, I doubt anyone on Earth is stupid enough to want to get involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=116) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=118)