# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 120
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2499 "2023-12-14T19:50:10Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > No matter how humanitarian the goals might be, an invading country taking their opponents’ children back to their country is all kinds of bad. It’s very bad when Russia takes Ukranian “orphans” back to Russia, it would be very bad for Israel to take Gazan children back to Israel. I don’t think it’s a good idea for Israel to just grab the kids and take them. It would be voluntary and through an intermediary like the Red Crescent. So I don’t think it compares to Russians just taking Ukrainian kids ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2500 "2023-12-14T19:50:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Why? They would surely return them, or perhaps take the children to the parents in another location, perhaps Egypt. Taking away kids is all kinds of creepy. And it’s surely better to provide help on-site, for adults as well as children. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2501 "2023-12-14T19:52:49Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > It would be voluntary Nothing done to kids is really voluntary. And kids do better when they have access to their parents. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2502 "2023-12-14T20:02:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And it’s surely better to provide help on-site, for adults as well as children. Yes, it’s surely better. But when it’s not possible (for many reasons), do you prefer the kids stay on-site and suffer? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2503 "2023-12-14T20:14:50Z")
Will hamas let Israel deliver theses things to hospitals? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2504 "2023-12-14T20:15:03Z")
Why is it not possible? There is trained medical staff in Gaza, they just need basic supplies. It’s cheaper to bring in some supplies than to move kids around. Anyway no, I’m not going to support stealing injured children, even if those children are subsequently returned (which would be kinda hard, given all the confusion.) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2505 "2023-12-14T20:21:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The reason that I don’t think we should be directly involved with occupying Gaza during the reconstruction phase is political, not economic - I think troops of any other country (except perhaps American troops) would be better received than Israeli troops. I understand the political issues here and largely agree with them. I am not, however, convinced that the current government of Israel intends to pay even on shekel towards rebuilding Gaza (though I’d be delighted to be wrong on that). If Israel were very clear about being willing to contribute to rebuilding efforts under the direction of someone else that might help, but that’s not the message coming through to the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2506 "2023-12-14T20:37:58Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > This is not war. It’s one sided punitive annihilation. Nonsense, it’s a war. It may be a lopsided one, but neither side is required to make it easier for the other. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2507 "2023-12-14T20:45:32Z")
They can use PVC pipe this time which I believe is not suitable for rocket tubes. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2508 "2023-12-14T23:12:03Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Do you all (in this thread), from both sides of the issue, think Israel could alleviate some of this by taking in injured children and helping them in Israeli hospitals? Would this be (a) logistically feasible and (b) something Israel would want to do? …I have repeatedly, over and over again in this thread cited the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. So with all due respect: this question _baffles_ me. Because it doesn’t matter what is “logistically feasible” or “what Israel wants to do.” Israel has _obligations_ under international law. Obligations that they have repeatedly _refused to follow_. Hospitals, in times of war, are _protected_. There are very limited circumstances when they can be attacked. There are _no circumstances_ where they can be taken over, medical equipment destroyed, then taken out of action. Israel claimed that there was a command and control bunker under Al Shifa Hospital. As we’ve explored quite extensively in this thread, what was found was some tunnels that we knew were built decades ago, and some weapons that, depending on circumstances, are _allowed_ under the conventions to be stored at the hospital. This wasn’t enough in the eyes of almost every expert in international law to make the hospital a target. However that doesn’t really matter. Even if we assumed that there was a command and control bunker under Al Shifa, Israel still had the following obligations: > [@Red Cross](#): > > The following measures should be taken to minimize the direct and indirect impact of such an attack on the provision of health-care services, whenever feasible and operationally relevant: > > • Prepare a contingency plan to address the estimated disruption to health-care services and to re-establish full delivery as soon as possible. > • Consider measures both for the evacuation of patients and medical personnel and for them to be taken properly in charge. > • Interrupt the attack if the facility no longer meets the criteria leading to the loss of protected status (e.g. combatants have fled from the medical facility). > • After the attack, facilitate or implement measures for the rapid restoration of health-care services (e.g. provide military medical support for the civilian medical facility). > **[The protection of hospitals during armed conflicts: What the law says](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says)** > > What kind of specific protection do the wounded and sick enjoy in times of armed conflict?In times of armed conflict, the wounded and sick include anyone, whether military or civilian, who needs medical attention and is not, or no longer, taking part... This isn’t what happened in Gaza. Hospitals were surrounded, put under siege, taken over, hospital staff and patients expelled, then critical medical equipment destroyed. Its more than just Al Shifa. It was _18 other hospitals_. (19 if you include what happened to Kamal Adwan a few days ago. 20 if you include Al Awda which is under siege right now) These are _war crimes_. If it had just happened to Al Shifa then perhaps we could give Israel the benefit of doubt. But it _wasn’t_ just Al Shifa. It’s become standard operating procedure. They’ve taken out the hospitals in the north and most in central Gaza. And they are moving south. > [@Polerius](#): > > It’s a war zone, people will be ripped apart. As I understand, in other wars, the Red Cross could go into the war zone and collect injured people to help them. In a war zone, hospitals are to be protected. If hospitals lose their protected status, once the thing that caused protected status to be lifted has been eliminated, hospitals regain their protected status. The most egregious failure here was what happened at Al-Nasr Children’s Hospital. From NBC: > [@NBC](#): > > In a piece he reported, Mohammed Baalousha, a journalist with the Emirati TV channel Al-Mashhad, [said he found](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl2BkqcZIHA) the decomposing infants when he entered the pediatric ICU in the health facility in Gaza City. The hospital’s staff and critically ill patients were forced to evacuate in early November as the Israeli military focused its ground assault on the city, with hospitals under fire. > > … > > Filmed about two weeks after the hospital was evacuated, the footage appears to show at least three of the five dead infants, with their bodies putrefying, in close proximity to catheters and ventilators. > > One baby is seen decomposing while lying alone, appearing to still be connected to an oximeter with a green oxygen tank nearby, as insects appear to crawl on its chest. A bedsheet is used as a soft pillow, and an empty bottle and a medical glove box are shown closer to the bed’s edge. > > … > > Two independent forensic pathologists reviewed the raw footage. They said the advanced stages of decomposition of the dead infants is consistent with the roughly two weeks from the time the infants would have been abandoned to the date the video was shot. > > Around Nov. 10, doctors, patients and hospital staff were forced to evacuate Al-Nasr as the Israeli military continued its ground invasion of northern Gaza and issued repeated evacuation calls to the hospital and others in the vicinity. Amid heavy gunfire and [shelling](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/11/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-live/#link-RABMZMGPRBAI5CZDYRIOQX2OAU), and as Israeli tanks encircled the hospital, staff concluded they could not safely evacuate five babies, several of whom were premature and “placed on oxygen machines,” said Dr. Mustafa Al-Kahlot, director of the hospital. > **[Abandoned babies found decomposing in Gaza hospital weeks after it was evacuated](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533)** > > “No child should have to die alone,” a charity said in response to a widely shared TV report that has sent shockwaves on social media. > [@Polerius](#): > > But since that’s not happening soon, could someone like the Red Cross / Red Crescent take in the injured so they don’t suffer the horrific stuff we read about? This isn’t the role of the Red Cross / Red Crescent. They aren’t set up to do this: _not on this scale_. Again, it isn’t only the injured from bombs and rubble we are talking about here. We are talking about maternity care. We are talking about cancer treatments. We are talking about dialysis. We are talking about Covid, and heart attacks, and children’s hospitals and psychiatric care. Everything that hospitals do. Imagine if you lived in a city of 2 million people, crowded into a space of Las Vegas. Now imagine half of all of the hospitals suddenly gone, and the roads have been bombed, and you risk getting shot by a sniper if you leave the home. How you do access even routine healthcare? This is the reason _why_ hospitals get protected status. Because this isn’t something that the Red Cross / Red Crescent are set up to do. Even if they set up multiple field hospitals, it would be practically impossible to provide the range of care that the hospitals were providing at the start of the war. > [@Polerius](#): > > This would work for things like electricity, disinfectants, and pain killers, but not so much for things like fuel since that could be taken by Hamas for their own purposes. This is such a _tired_ talking point. Electricity requires _fuel_. If it would “work for things like electricity” then it would have to work _also for fuel_. The two go _hand in hand_. And the thing is…the hospitals _were getting the fuel they needed to function_. This _only_ became a problem when the _IDF laid siege to the hospitals_. Only once the hospitals were surrounded, and they cut off access to food, water, fuel, medical supplies, did the hospitals start to become non-functional. > [@Polerius](#): > > do you prefer if the injured kids are left to suffer in under-stocked Gaza hospitals, or do you prefer if they are taken care of in fully operational hospitals? It took significant effort and international co-operation just to open a corridor to transport only 20 premature babies from Al Shifa to a hospital in the south. The logistics of moving thousands of injured children to Israel, _considering that hundreds are being injured every single day_, are _impossible_. This isn’t even in the realms of something that could happen. What needs to happen is that the few remaining hospitals in Gaza need to be _left functional_ and allowed to get _all of the resources they need_, including food, water, fuel, medical supplies. They need to _stop being targeted_. And even this won’t be enough. Because Gaza is facing a _humanitarian catastrophe_. And it isn’t one that has a “quick fix.” And on top of this we have the illegal siege that has bought Gaza to the brink of famine, we have 1.9 million people out of 2.3 million people displaced from their homes, 1.3 million of them living in UN shelters where disease and infection are starting to run rampant. In the open letter I posted up thread from the UNRWA Commissioner-General he lays it out as plainly as possible: > [@](#): > > “without safe shelter and aid, civilians in Gaza risk death or will be forced to Egypt and beyond. Forced displacement out of Gaza may end prospects for the political solution that is intrinsic to UNRWA’s mandate, with grave risks for regional peace and security. A forced displacement beyond Palestinian land, reminiscent of the 1948 Nakba, must be prevented.” > **[Letter From UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini to the UN General...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/letter-unrwa-commissioner-general-philippe-lazzarini-un-general-assembly-president-mr-dennis-francis)** > > News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 7 Dec 2023 by UNRWA ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2509 "2023-12-14T23:17:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What needs to happen is that the few remaining hospitals in Gaza need to be _left functional_ and allowed to get _all of the resources they need_, including food, water, fuel, medical supplies. They need to _stop being targeted_. And the ones that were shut down could be reopened. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2510 "2023-12-14T23:29:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And the ones that were shut down could be reopened. …this unfortunately really isn’t possible without a permanent ceasefire and a significant investment of resources. Because this is Al Shifa at the moment. > **[Patients return to Gaza's al Shifa hospital | Israel-Hamas war](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uFNNfTLanE%2F)** > > Sky News has witnessed patients returning to Gaza's al Shifa hospital, weeks after Israel forced patients out and arrested some members of staff. The IDF had... The IDF have abandoned the hospital. And the people have moved back in. Once again, it’s become a refuge for thousands of people. But the doctors and medical staff that used to work there have either been arrested, or they’ve moved down south and are working down there. The destroyed equipment can’t be easily fixed or replaced. It isn’t under IDF control any more. They are _trying_ to turn it back into a hospital. Its taking care of patients right now. But it’s effectively a field clinic, not a surgical hospital any more. Most of the resources have been recommitted. And there is no guarantee that the IDF won’t return and just kick everyone out again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2511 "2023-12-15T04:17:11Z")
If the medical staff moved South who is taking care of the patients? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2512 "2023-12-15T06:54:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If the medical staff moved South who is taking care of the patients? …are you talking about Al Shifa? Because the timeline for what happened there has been quite firmly established. The hospital was surrounded and laid siege by the IDF. Then they took over the hospital, then after a few days gave everyone 24 hours to leave the hospital. Most medical staff, people who were using the hospital as shelter and patients left at that point, were pushed to follow the corridor down south to the next medical facilities. But some patients, those most unable to move, remained, along with a skeleton crew of staff. The remaining patients were slowly evacuated over the next few days, and during one of these evacuations, the director of the hospital and some of the staff were arrested as they accompanied patients down south. I’m sure that some doctors and medical staff have returned to help out where they can. But it isn’t a functional hospital. It’s a building that _used_ to be a functional hospital, that still has some things like hospital beds and saline drips. Are you talking about other hospitals? Because this update from three days ago talks about Nasser Medical Complex in central Khan Younis, one of the remaining functional hospitals in the “safe” south: > [@](#): > > At Nasser Medical Complex in central Khan Younis, what head ICU nurse Dr. Samer Mansour describes can hardly be called a functioning hospital — no syringes, no gauze, no medications. There is not enough water and electricity from generators is spotty, at best, he says. There are four patients for each of the hospital’s 300 beds, resulting in many patients being forced to lie in the corridors. Mansour estimates that 20,000 others are using the hospital grounds simply as shelter from the fighting. > > … > > Dr. Mohammad Zaqout, the director of hospitals at the Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health in Gaza, tells NPR that dozens of doctors at Nasser have fled. They fear Israeli troops could occupy the hospital, as happened earlier at the Al-Shifa hospital in northern Gaza, he said. > > Mansour says that during last month’s brief cease-fire, Nasser began receiving patients from Al-Shifa and the Indonesian Hospital in northern Gaza, where the opening phase of the Israeli drive to eradicate Hamas was focused. Since the temporary truce ended nearly two weeks ago, things have only gotten worse, Mansour says. > > “We have a catastrophic situation here,” he says. “We have very few doctors, nurses and administrators.” > **[At 1 Gaza hospital, doctors are fleeing, supplies are low and there's not...](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/12/1218692478/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-khan-younis)** > > In the Palestinian territory's second-largest city, Khan Younis, thousands have taken shelter on the grounds of Nasser Medical Complex, where staff describe an increasingly desperate situation. What happened at the hospitals up north have had a chilling effect down south: some medical staff don’t want to get “scooped up” by IDF raids like what happened in the north so they’ve left. Do you mean who is looking after the patients in the north, where there is only a single barely functional hospital now? Well, nobody, really. You’ve got make-shift clinics and first aid stations that are treating people as well as they can. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2513 "2023-12-15T10:22:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If the medical staff moved South who is taking care of the patients? Short answer: no one. That’s why in at least one location a NICU was found with 5 dead, decomposing babies still hooked up to non-working machinery. Al-Nasr Children’s Hospital, look it up yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2514 "2023-12-15T14:05:21Z")
Hamas ambush tactics: > Looks like they are taking cues from the Russian forces in the Ukraine: > **[Videos show Russian boobytraps left in trees, toys, trenches](https://www.newsweek.com/videos-russian-boobytraps-trees-toys-trenches-ukraine-mines-grenades-explosives-1814003)** > > "Besides artillery, I would say minefields and boobytraps are the biggest killer," one U.S. veteran in Ukraine told Newsweek. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2515 "2023-12-15T14:40:34Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Nonsense, it’s a war. It may be a lopsided one, but neither side is required to make it easier for the other. If the two sides are “IDF” and “Hamas,” then you’re sort of right. International law requires them to make it “easier” in the sense of “not committing war crimes against criminals”; but they’re allowed to fight to the extent of their military capability. But we’re not talking about “IDF” and “Hamas” only. There’s a third side: the civilians in the area, whether Israeli or Gazan, who aren’t part of the armed forces. And the military sides are 100% required, morally and ethically and by international law, to make it easier on the civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2516 "2023-12-15T14:46:59Z")
There’s always a 3rd side of civilians in war, especially modern warfare. I wasn’t responding to that. The complaint was that it’s not a war because the IDF is overwhelmingly more capable than Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2517 "2023-12-15T14:48:09Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > The complaint was that it’s not a war because the IDF is overwhelmingly more capable than Hamas. That wasn’t the complaint. Let me quote the complaint: > [@Crane](#): > > Those children are not combatants. > [@Dorjan](#): > > There’s always a 3rd side of civilians in war, especially modern warfare. Modern warfare doesn’t always include civilian casualties on this scale. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2518 "2023-12-15T15:00:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That wasn’t the complaint. Let me quote the complaint: > > > [@Crane](#): > > > > Those children are not combatants. I see you are being very selective in your quoting. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Modern warfare doesn’t always include civilian casualties on this scale. Really now? WWII: 55 Million civilian deaths Korean War: 1.5 million civilian deaths Vietnam War: 2 million civilian deaths Afghan-Soviet War: 2 million civilian deaths Persian Gulf War - 100,000 civilian deaths Operation Iraqi Freedom - 200,000+ civilian deaths Operation Enduring Freedom - 46,000 civilian deaths Congo War - 2.5 million civilian deaths Bosnia War - 38,000+ civilian deaths Russian-Ukranian War: 10,000+ civilian deaths and counting. That’s a short list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=119) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=121)