# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 121
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2519 "2023-12-15T15:00:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel claimed that there was a command and control bunker under Al Shifa Hospital. As we’ve explored quite extensively in this thread, what was found was some tunnels that we knew were built decades ago _Has_ this been explored quite extensively? I think there’s some been some (perhaps deliberate) confusion between a documented basement/bunker that was constructed by Israel many years ago, and what appears (to me) to be a newly constructed (definitely not to code) tunnel system leading to an apartment near the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2520 "2023-12-15T16:15:20Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > _Has_ this been explored quite extensively? No, it hasn’t; and further, I find the assertion that all the weapons found at the hospital are _totally fine, dude_ to be absolutely laughable. But we’ve been round and round (and round and round and round and round) that carousel before… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2521 "2023-12-15T17:15:40Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > I see you are being very selective in your quoting. You quoted one of two sentences from a post–the assertion, not the evidence–and declared it nonsense. I quoted the other sentence to show why it’s not nonsense, and **you** accuse **me** of selective quoting? I admire your rhetorical chops, at least. [Edit: I see you quoted two of the sentences. The first one was really short, and in my mind I conflated the two as a compound sentence. My bad. The point–that I wasn’t any more selective than you, and that’s absurd for you to make that accusation–stands.] > [@Dorjan](#): > > That’s a short list. Well, let’s go to the last one first, the Russian-Ukranian War. I’m assuming you’re not trying to compare Israel to Russia in its moral rectitude, but set that aside–and let’s assume that you’re counting Ukranians killed by Russia only in 2022 and 2023. In about 20-22 months, Russia has killed fewer civilians than IDF has killed in 2 months. The Bosnian War was three years long, and the war crimes were so prevalent that Wikipedia doesn’t have a separate article for them: they have separate articles for different _subcategories of war crimes in that war:_ > **[Ethnic cleansing in the Bosnian War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War)** > > Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries. Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Gen Beginnin... > **[Bosnian genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide)** > > The Bosnian genocide (Bosnian: Bosanski genocid / Босански геноцид) refers to either the Srebrenica massacre or the wider crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing campaign throughout areas controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) during the Bosnian War of 1992–1995. The events in Srebrenica in 1995 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys, as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,000–30,000 Bosniak civilians by VRS units under the command Th... > **[Rape during the Bosnian War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Bosnian_War)** > > Rape during the Bosnian War was a policy of mass systemic violence targeted against women. While men from all ethnic groups committed rape, the vast majority of rapes were perpetrated by Bosnian Serb forces of the Army of the Republika Srpska (VRS) and Serb paramilitary units, who used rape as an instrument of terror and key tactics as part of their programme of ethnic cleansing. Estimates of the number of women raped during the war range between 10,000 and 50,000. Accurate numb The Internatio... And even so, the _rate_ of civilian deaths in that conflict was much lower than the _rate_ of civilian deaths in this one. Congo War–are you serious? Your defense against accusations of war crimes perpetrated by IDF goes to the Congo War? Please reread what I wrote: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Modern warfare doesn’t always include civilian casualties on this scale. Listing some wars with horrific war crimes in them doesn’t mean that modern warfare **always** includes civilian casualties on this side. Listing conflicts headed up by war criminals may not be making the case you think it’s making. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2522 "2023-12-15T17:29:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Well, let’s go to the last one first, the Russian-Ukranian War. I’m assuming you’re not trying to compare Israel to Russia in its moral rectitude, but set that aside–and let’s assume that you’re counting Ukranians killed by Russia only in 2022 and 2023. In about 20-22 months, Russia has killed fewer civilians than IDF has killed in 2 months. Maybe that’s because when the Ukranian army knows that it’s about to fight the Russians in a city reducing it to rubble, they evacuate the civilians _first_ rather than forbidding them from leaving? Multiple large cities (populations in the hundreds of thousands) on the Russian front have been utterly destroyed by the fighting. If the Ukranian army had been telling civilians “don’t you dare leave these cities! If you do the Russians will take over these places and never let you back in” - _a very realistic threat considering Russian actions, I might add_ - then Ukranian civilian casualties would number in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. But since the Ukranian government and army gives half a shit about the lives of its civilians, it has not acted this way - and _thank God_ it hasn’t. Mariupol (pre-war population of over 450,000) has had over 90% of its buildings destroyed. Can you imagine how many more civilians would have died if Ukrainian army units shot civilians trying to evacuate because it wanted to use them as human shields against the Russians? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2523 "2023-12-15T17:31:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Maybe that’s because when the Ukranian army knows that it’s about to fight the Russians in a city reducing it to rubble, they evacuate the civilians _first_ rather than forbidding them from leaving? > > … > > But since the Ukranian government and army gives half a shit about the lives of its civilians, it has not acted this way - and _thank God_ it hasn’t. If your point is that Hamas is fucking awful: **granted**. They’re the worst. They’re scum. IDF knows that, and knows what they’ll do. IDF needs to incorporate that into their decisionmaking about how to act in cases where civilian lives are in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2524 "2023-12-15T17:33:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If your point is that Hamas is fucking awful: **granted**. They’re the worst. They’re scum. My point is that Hamas _makes it impossible for the IDF to engage Hamas forces eithout civilians getting in the way_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2525 "2023-12-15T17:34:33Z")
I think the difference is that, confronted with that reality, you think that IDF’s actions are acceptable. I think that, confronted with that reality, their actions are not. You posted a meme recently from Shrek, of the awful prince saying, “Some of you will die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.” Consider how that applies to IDF’s actions in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2526 "2023-12-15T19:12:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Multiple large cities (populations in the hundreds of thousands) on the Russian front have been utterly destroyed by the fighting. Are you posting this as a justification for the current IDF operation in Gaza. That is very weak. Better to use the Brit policy of Air Marshall “Bomber” Harris (WW2) whose rigid policy was to kill as many German civilians as possible in order to create dissatisfaction with the Nazis. Dresden and Hamburg were deliberate strikes at the civilian population. So, does that somehow justify the IDF in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2527 "2023-12-15T19:15:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > My point is that Hamas _makes it impossible for the IDF to engage Hamas forces eithout civilians getting in the way_. I am told that the inconsiderate buggers live there. Kind of like they do in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2528 "2023-12-15T19:16:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You posted a meme recently from Shrek, of the awful prince saying, “Some of you will die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.” Consider how that applies to IDF’s actions in Gaza. I agree that this is the reality that the Palestinian people face, but I think the prince in that situation is clearly the Gazan leadership, safe and snug in their Qatari hotel beds. They’re the people who launched this war knowing full well what it would mean. Not destroying Hamas after its actions on Oct 7 is an invitation for the events of that day to repeat. I still haven’t seen any proposals on how to accomplish this other than war. > [@Crane](#): > > Better to use the Brit policy of Air Marshall “Bomber” Harris (WW2) whose rigid policy was to kill as many German civilians as possible in order to create dissatisfaction with the Nazis. Dresden and Hamburg were deliberate strikes at the civilian population. Do you have even a _shred_ of evidence that this is Israel’s intent? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2529 "2023-12-15T19:18:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Listing conflicts headed up by war criminals may not be making the case you think it’s making. I listed a wide variety of conflicts. My case is clear, civilian casualties are an inherent part of modern warfare. The current Israel-Hamas war is not that unique in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2530 "2023-12-15T19:18:27Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I am told that the inconsiderate buggers live there. Kind of like they do in Israel. The criticism is not of the civilians living in their homes, it’s of Hamas choosing to set up their operations in hospitals and residential buildings. Which I agree, is quite inconsiderate of them. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2531 "2023-12-15T19:19:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Do you have even a _shred_ of evidence that this is Israel’s intent? Come now, I don’t believe they killed 18000 people by accident. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2532 "2023-12-15T19:20:20Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Come now, I don’t believe they killed 18000 people by accident I don’t really care what you _believe_ - I care about what you have evidence for. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2533 "2023-12-15T19:27:41Z")
sorry will repost ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2534 "2023-12-15T19:30:08Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > [quote="Bab > > [Israel is using unguided](https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E210US1079G0&p=israel+uses+unguided+weapons+in+gaza)ale, post:2532, topic:991317"] > I care about what you have evidence for. > [/quote] weapons in a crowded urban area. Such weapons have an intended target kill rate of less than 10%. That is a total disregard for civilian life. Done consistently on the level of thousands, it becomes intent You attempted to link a Yahoo Search results page; here’s the first link on that page: > **[Amid outcry over civilian casualties in Gaza, experts note Israel's so-called...](https://www.yahoo.com/gma/amid-outcry-over-civilian-casualties-183300164.html)** > > So-called "dumb bombs" can be deployed in conjunction with dive bombing to improve accuracy, according to experts. > [@](#): > > Amid outcry over civilian casualties in Gaza, experts note Israel’s so-called ‘dumb bombs’ can be used with precision I agree - even bombs that aren’t high tech self guided munitions can be used with precision, thank you for pointing this out. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2535 "2023-12-15T19:32:57Z")
From @Crane’s extremely handy link: > [@](#): > > The numbers assessed by the U.S. intelligence report would suggest a historically high level of precision weapons usage in urban warfare, according to ABC News contributor Steve Ganyard, a former State Department official and Marine Corps fighter pilot. > > **“Precision weapons are expensive and in short supply compared to ‘dumb’ bombs, but if Israel is using precision aerial weapons 55-60% of the time, then that is more than any country in the history of urban warfare,” Ganyard said.** > > Furthermore, experts and U.S. officials told ABC News there are tactics that can be used to drop these weapons, which are more neutrally referred to as “unguided munitions,” with precision, and to largely avoid needlessly killing or injuring civilians Emphasis mine. Thanks for proving my point, @Crane! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2536 "2023-12-15T19:49:57Z")
Can I just point out the insidiousness of whatever source first peddled this claim that Crane is echoing? Someone wanted to make Israel look bad, so they took a statement that Israel uses 40-45% unguided munitions, and without bothering to compare this stat to what other countries do, or looking into whether this is actually going to cause a disproportionate number of civilian casualties. In actual fact, this is a very high rate of guided munition use, which shows Israel’s efforts to _avoid_ civilian casualties. But that’s not as easy of a clickbaity headline to write. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2537 "2023-12-15T20:04:01Z")
Actually Israel only claims ‘heightened’ accuracy for these weapons (you can find that with an easy google). Laser conversion kits for dumb bombs achieve a rate of 48% hitting within 28 feet of the intended target. Most land somewhere in the vicinity. That’s high quality laser conversion kits, not ‘heightened’ accuracy stuff. One ton dumb bombs being used as anti-personnel weapons in urban areas is an act of desperation. As it was in WW2. The tired trope that the enemy is using civilians as a shield is weak propaganda. Hamas knows that Israel is not deterred by the prospect of killing Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2538 "2023-12-15T20:06:48Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Hamas knows that Israel is not deterred by the prospect of killing Palestinians. That’s true, but they do know that they can use that to turn world opinion - and particularly American opinion - against Israel, which is the true goal of that tactic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=120) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=122)