# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 122
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2539 "2023-12-15T20:09:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree that this is the reality that the Palestinian people face, but I think the prince in that situation is clearly the Gazan leadership, safe and snug in their Qatari hotel beds. They’re the people who launched this war knowing full well what it would mean. As I’ve said before, it’s not either-or. Both military forces are perfectly willing to sacrifice Gazan civilians for their personal gain. The hordes of hell and the hosts of heaven trample the peasant’s garden. > [@Babale](#): > > I still haven’t seen any proposals on how to accomplish this other than war. The question is how to prosecute the war–and there are ways to do it that might slightly increase the risk to Israeli citizens while drastically decreasing the risk to Gazan civilians. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2540 "2023-12-15T20:16:26Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s true, but they do know that they can use that to turn world opinion - and particularly American opinion - against Israel, which is the true goal of that tactic. I agree. The UN called for a cease fire without condemning hamas for murdering and raping 1,200 people. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2541 "2023-12-15T20:22:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The UN called for a cease fire without condemning hamas for murdering and raping 1,200 people. That sounds like one of the three Ds that have been mentioned, a double-standard. They called for a ceasefire from **everyone** and didn’t condemn the violence of **anyone** , correct? If they’d specifically condemned IDF’s violence but not Hamas’s violence, you’d be correct in calling them out; but if you want them to condemn Hamas and putting that as equivalent to a ceasefire demand, that’s a double-standard. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2542 "2023-12-15T20:41:16Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > _Has_ this been explored quite extensively? …the hospital has been abandoned by the IDF. So it can’t have been _that_ important. > [@Babale](#): > > I find the assertion that all the weapons found at the hospital are _totally fine, dude_ My claim is that the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war allow weapons, under certain circumstances, to be stored at hospitals. You accept this is true, don’t you? > [@Babale](#): > > My point is that Hamas _makes it impossible for the IDF to engage Hamas forces eithout civilians getting in the way_. Have they? Impossible is a pretty definitive word. Wouldn’t you say 'difficult" would be a more accurate word to be using here? > [@Babale](#): > > Do you have even a _shred_ of evidence that this is Israel’s intent? > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t really care what you _believe_ - I care about what you have evidence for. I think the more relevant question here is…do you have any evidence that the IDF are targeting Hamas? How many Hamas militants have been killed in this operation? How many Hamas leadership? How many Hamas bases have been identified and captured/destroyed? Why have the IDF shut down 20 hospitals in Gaza? If this war is targeting Hamas, then how well is the war actually going? > [@Babale](#): > > In actual fact, this is a very high rate of guided munition use, **which shows Israel’s efforts to _avoid_ civilian casualties.** Bolding mine. And no, it actually _doesn’t_ show that. The very high rate of guided munition use, coupled with the amount of children the IDF have killed in this war, the fact that it has somehow managed to accidentally kill over 80 journalists and many of their families in their homes, considering that they know pretty much where everyone lives, suggests that either the IDF are very bad at their jobs, or that the high rate of guided munitions means that many of these people have been deliberately targeted. What it _doesn’t_ suggest is that they are making any significant effort to avoid civilian casualties. Significantly lower rates of civilian casualties would be evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2543 "2023-12-15T21:17:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My claim is that the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war allow weapons, under certain circumstances, to be stored at hospitals. You accept this is true, don’t you? It’s true, but your claim that it is applicable here ignores the fact that the IDF engaged Hamas terrorists on the hospital grounds, and that these weapons were _not_ being stored there while wounded Hamas fighters recovered but the hispital grounds were actively in use by Hamas. Your claim would make sense if the hospital had a handful of sidearms or rifles. Your claim does not make sense if the hospital is full of AT rounds and rocket launchers. You don’t lug a mortar and half a dozen artillery shells with you to get treated. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Have they? > > Impossible is a pretty definitive word. > > Wouldn’t you say 'difficult" would be a more accurate word to be using here? No, I wouldn’t; not until you or someone else provides and actual alternative, that isn’t “just stop attacking and realize you can’t beat Hamas so you should just wait for the next Oct 7”. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How many Hamas militants have been killed in this operation? [It’s about a 2 to 1 ratio, current estimates are that 6,000 militants have been killed.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How many Hamas leadership? Where do we start? I guess at the top: [6, or half, of Hamas’ Battalion commanders](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-of-hamass-battalion-commanders-34a1c058) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How many Hamas bases have been identified and captured/destroyed? [800 tunnel shafts identified and 500 destroyed.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/12/05/800-and-countingfor-now-the-idf-is-locating-hamas-tunnel-shafts/) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Why have the IDF shut down 20 hospitals in Gaza? [Because Hamas has a long history of using hospitals as bases from which to wage war against Israel.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-airs-clip-of-gunmen-surrendering-in-northern-gaza-hospital-says-70-handed-themselves-in/) And that’s not limited to Shifa. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2544 "2023-12-15T21:23:15Z")
In other news… Three Israeli hostages who managed to escape during the fighting in Gaza City were killed by the IDF in a friendly fire incident after they were mistaken for enemy combatants. Urban warfare is an absolute nightmare… ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2545 "2023-12-15T21:33:43Z")
This is what happens when you kill indiscriminately. > **[Israel-Hamas War: Israeli Troops Accidentally Kill Three Hostages](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/15/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news#israel-says-its-troops-killed-three-israeli-hostages-in-a-case-of-mistaken-identity)** > > Israeli forces mistakenly identified three Israeli hostages as a threat during a battle in Shejaiye, a Hamas stronghold in northern Gaza, the military said. p.s. I’d be surprised if this is the first time this has happened in this war, with all the bombing going on. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2546 "2023-12-15T21:35:30Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > This is what happens when you kill indiscriminately Oh, yes, this is evidence that the IDF wants to genocide Israelis! …or maybe it’s evidence that urban warfare is immensely difficult and when one side hides among civilians, that gets civilians killed. One of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2547 "2023-12-15T21:41:43Z")
To their credit IDF jumped out ahead of that story. Unfortunately IDF has a young ill trained force on the ground. The hostages were unarmed and presented no threat to the IDF. It was just scared kids. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2548 "2023-12-15T22:03:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > but your claim that it is applicable here ignores the fact that the IDF engaged Hamas terrorists on the hospital grounds, …the IDF claimed that it engaged militants on the compound. That may have happened. But it’s irrelevant here. > [@Babale](#): > > and that these weapons were _not_ being stored there while wounded Hamas fighters recovered but the hispital grounds were actively in use by Hamas. I’m sorry, but what exactly is your claim here? Is your claim that the videos produced by the IDF that allegedly showed a “large arms cache” were actually the weapons taken from the militants they were fighting? > [@Babale](#): > > Your claim would make sense if the hospital had a handful of sidearms or rifles. Your claim does not make sense if the hospital is full of AT rounds and rocket launchers. You don’t lug a mortar and half a dozen artillery shells with you to get treated. Over the course of this war we have seen multiple instances of the IDF planting evidence, staging scenes, lying and exaggerating about what they found. And I’ve looked for evidence about mortars and AT rounds found at Al Shifa, and didn’t find anything, what are you refering too? > [@Babale](#): > > No, I wouldn’t; not until you or someone else provides and actual alternative, that isn’t “just stop attacking and realize you can’t beat Hamas so you should just wait for the next Oct 7”. Euro-Med Monitor, based on both the current MOH death figures _and_ on how many children are still missing under the rubble, suggests that 10,000 children and infants have been killed by the IDF in this campaign. I refuse to accept that these deaths were inevitable. I refuse to accept that it was _impossible_ to wage this war in some other way. Stopping using the [Gospel](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets) would be a good start. Slow the whole process down. > [@Babale](#): > > It’s about a 2 to 1 ratio, current estimates are that 6,000 militants have been killed. I didn’t ask for a ratio. I certainly didn’t ask for a ratio based on numbers complied by the _Hamas-lead Ministry of Health_. Surely Israel has a comprehensive accounting here. You can’t tell me that they are effectively relying on “vibes.” > [@Babale](#): > > 6, or half, of Hamas’ Battalion commanders Paywalled. > [@Babale](#): > > 800 tunnel shafts identified and 500 destroyed. I didn’t ask for tunnel shafts. I asked for _Hamas bases_. > [@Babale](#): > > [Because Hamas has a long history of using hospitals as bases from which to wage war against Israel.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-airs-clip-of-gunmen-surrendering-in-northern-gaza-hospital-says-70-handed-themselves-in/) There is very strong, compelling evidence that the photo that headlined this article was staged, and that one of those Hamas “gunmen” is Nasr Emad Al Madhoun, a trainee doctor, and another has been identified as a nurse. Apologies in advance for the Twitter link: > The video here is also included in a Twitter link in the original article. The claim that Hamas has used hospitals as bases _in this war_ is _not one that is supported by any evidence at all._ It certainly isn’t supported by the article you cited. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2549 "2023-12-15T23:14:13Z")
Pulling together a few different discussions in several places brought to mind this question: do calls for ceasefires primarily target Israel? If so, do those making the call assume that if Israel stops hostilities, Hamas will likely or definitely honor it as well? (I’ve seen at least some folks directly say yes, but is that the general assumption?) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2550 "2023-12-15T23:22:17Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > do calls for ceasefires primarily target Israel? …no. A cease-fire is an agreement, sometimes declared unilaterally, often as a result of a negotiated agreement, to cease military activity for a given length of time in a given area. > [@Leaper](#): > > If so, do those making the call assume that if Israel stops hostilities, Hamas will likely or definitely honor it as well? I make no assumptions that either Israel _or_ Hamas would honour a ceasefire agreement. The conduct by Israel in the West Bank _right now_ shows that this isn’t just about Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2551 "2023-12-15T23:29:19Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > To their credit IDF jumped out ahead of that story. > > Unfortunately IDF has a young ill trained force on the ground. The hostages were unarmed and presented no threat to the IDF. It was just scared kids. Three military-aged males walking the streets. Apparently, that just terrifies the IDF. At best, they did not respond immediately to commands. At worst, there were no commands and they were just gunned down. Makes you wonder how many civilian non-combatants who _weren’t_ hostages have suffered similar fates. That’s the real story to me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2552 "2023-12-16T04:06:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think the difference is that, confronted with that reality, you think that IDF’s actions are acceptable. I think that, confronted with that reality, their actions are not. The reality is that it’s Hamas’s fault that they are using civilians in this manner. The best the IDF can do is is give advanced warning. So yes, Hamas is fucking awful. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2553 "2023-12-16T04:39:47Z")
Giving warnings is really not the best the IDF can do. It might the best that they _choose_ to do, but it certainly isn’t the best. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2554 "2023-12-16T04:42:22Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Giving warnings is really not the best the IDF can do There’s nothing Israel can do that doesn’t put civilians at risk when they’re kept from fleeing by Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2555 "2023-12-16T05:37:29Z")
And yet somehow Gazans have been fleeing to the south. Hamas is doing a terrible job keeping them from fleeing, if that’s actually happening. Maybe it was true in the first couple days of the attack. And I don’t know what it has to do with IDF shooting unarmed civilians, Israeli no less. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2556 "2023-12-16T13:27:32Z")
I think Israel has rot at its top, and until Bibi goes, they are just going to keep making things worse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2557 "2023-12-16T13:29:46Z")
The IDF shooting Israeli hostages by mistake could be just a random, tragic mistake, or it could be a sign of incompetence (or worse). Or it could be both. Adding up many of the other instances since Oct 7th, I suspect it’s both. The IDF may not be what it once was. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2558 "2023-12-16T14:29:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The IDF shooting Israeli hostages by mistake could be just a random, tragic mistake, or it could be a sign of incompetence (or worse). Or it could be both. Unfortunately it appears to be the result of poor training and a lack of command structure. The soldier ignored the white flag(s) carried by the freed, unarmed, hostages and shot two of them. An officer commanded him to cease fire before he killed the third individual. The IDF is an integrated organization. There are no individual services competing for funds to execute their missions. One guy at the top hands out the money. So, the sophisticated systems exist at the expense of the guys in the trenches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=121) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=123)