# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 124
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2579 "2023-12-17T17:27:03Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > But you claimed that Palestinian civilians are getting what they deserve because of the actions of their government. No, I said they reaped what they sowed. That’s different than saying they deserved it. If parents have alligators as pets and their kids are killed by them then their actions brought about those deaths. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2580 "2023-12-17T17:36:47Z")
OK if deserve has nothing to do with it, then by your logic the kids partying in the desert were the reapings of the Israeli government’s policy of putting settlement alligators in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2581 "2023-12-17T17:46:50Z")
Are the people in the West Bank attacking anybody? And if you find Jews in the West Bank a problem wouldn’t those people be the one’s in danger? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2582 "2023-12-17T17:52:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If vehicles can drive through it, it must have an extensive ventilation system. Not if they’re electric. They could be using industrial electrical equipment that’s been around a long time. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2583 "2023-12-17T17:57:39Z")
Maybe I’m being too subtle. How about none of us refer to any civilian casualties on either side as being reapings? Because doing so only dehumanizes the people living there on both sides and helps perpetuate the ongoing cycle of violence. Also, regarding the West Bank: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/16/west-bank-settlers-violence-peace/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/16/west-bank-settlers-violence-peace/) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2584 "2023-12-17T18:09:42Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Maybe I’m being too subtle. How about none of us refer to any civilian casualties on either side as being reapings? Because doing so only dehumanizes the people living there on both sides and helps perpetuate the ongoing cycle of violence. Sorry but not just no, HELL NO. Hamas is a terrorist group. It wasn’t some subtle “nobody knew this would happen” election. Egypt immediately closed their border to Gaza when Hamas was elected into office. Hamas is the same group that was plotting terrorist acts in Europe recently. They need to be defeated. Innocent people are going to die as a direct result of that election. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2585 "2023-12-17T18:10:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are the people in the West Bank attacking anybody? No, and neither are Gazan civilians. Gazan civilians bear no more responsibility for the Oct 7th attacks (and the subsequent Israeli response) than Israeli civilians. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2586 "2023-12-17T18:19:37Z")
Let me quote myself from a few posts back. . . . where did I say don’t fight back. And I fully understand and accept that civilian casualties have always been part of war. But your reply to let’s not dehumanize people is “not just no, HELL NO.” Good luck to you, and enjoy many more generations of reaping what you sow. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2587 "2023-12-17T19:16:40Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2588 "2023-12-17T20:05:45Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > . . where did I say don’t fight back. And I fully understand and accept that civilian casualties have always been part of war. And in this case, as in WW-II, it as the result of electing monsters into office. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > But your reply to let’s not dehumanize people is “not just no, HELL NO.” Good luck to you, and enjoy many more generations of reaping what you sow. I’m saying HELL NO in response to a whitewash of what started this and that was the election of Hamas. It wasn’t some minor event. It was a big deal. It’s truly sad that children are caught up in this but that’s what happens when you vote a terrorist group into office and they start a war. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2589 "2023-12-17T20:13:46Z")
I’m good with what I said, no misunderstanding on my part. You said HELL NO when I asked that we not dehumanize people in a war zone. That says all I need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2590 "2023-12-17T20:38:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are the people in the West Bank attacking anybody? Yes. And by that I mean Jewish Israeli “settlers” are (and have been) attacking Palestinians who are legally living in the West Bank. Everything from petty harassment to forcing them off their property to murder. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2591 "2023-12-17T21:12:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hopefully he makes it. The medics will try and rescue him in the morning. …update from his Facebook page: he survived. He was rescued in the morning by four friends, who transported him on a wooden board to the nearest shelter, where he got taken to a medical centre where they told him he needs surgery: but he can’t get to the nearest hospitals because the roads are all closed. Tedros Ghebreyesus on what happened at Kamal Adwan hospital: > [@](#): > > . > > [@WHO](https://twitter.com/WHO) > > is appalled by the effective destruction of Kamal Adwan hospital in northern [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click) over the last several days, rendering it non-functional and resulting in the death of at least 8 patients. Many health workers were reportedly detained, and WHO and partners are urgently seeking information on their status. We learned that many patients had to self-evacuate at great risk to their health and safety, with ambulances unable to reach the facility. Of the deceased patients, several died due to lack of adequate health care, including a 9-year-old child. We are extremely concerned for the well-being of the internally displaced people who are reportedly sheltering in the hospital building. Gaza’s health system was already on its knees, and the loss of another even minimally functioning hospital is a severe blow. Attacks on hospitals, health personnel and patients must end. Ceasefire NOW. > Regarding the siege on the Gaza’s Holy Family Catholic Parish: the Pope has weighed in. > [@](#): > > At the Angelus prayer, the Pope said he continues to receive troubling news from Gaza, where “unarmed civilians are the targets of bombings and gunfire.” > > Pope Francis condemned an attack on the compound of the Catholic parish, “where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, and nuns.” > > “A mother, Mrs. Nahida Khalil Anton, and her daughter, Samar Kamal Anton, were killed, and others were wounded by the shooters while they were going to the bathroom,” said the Pope. > > “Some say, ‘This is terrorism. This is war.’ Yes, it is war. It is terrorism,” he said. “That is why the Scripture affirms that ‘God stops wars… breaks the bow, splinters the spear’ (Psalm 46:10). Let us pray to the Lord for peace.” > **[Pope condemns attacks on civilians in Gaza: ‘It is war; it is terrorism’ -...](https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2023-12/pope-francis-holy-family-parish-gaza-appeal-civilians.html)** > > Pope Francis launches a heartfelt appeal for an end to the “terrorism” of war, and condemns an Israeli military attack on Gaza’s Holy Family Catholic ... The IDF have claimed they “operated against Hamas terrorists in the area”, and reiterated that they do “not target civilians.” Still no update on casualties from the MOH since the 14th December, which stands at 18,787. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2592 "2023-12-17T21:41:20Z")
I’m going to give this one last text to see if you can understand what you are saying, even though I am sure it isn’t what mean to say. You keep on bringing up Nazi Germany. “And in this case, as in WW-II, it as the result of electing monsters into office.” “It’s truly sad that children are caught up in this but that’s what happens when you vote a terrorist group into office and they start a war.” You say that everyone in Gaza is responsible for the actions of Hamas. By that logic, the Jewish citizens of Nazi Germany were also responsible for the actions of their government, and just reaped what they sowed. I never said that Hamas doesn’t need to be stopped, I just asked that we don’t dehumanize civilians in the war zone. If the above example doesn’t show you the danger of taring everyone on a region based on the actions of their government, I just don’t know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2593 "2023-12-17T22:23:16Z")
I normally won’t link to daily mail. But the video of this captured Hamas tunnel is very good. Looks like something my state highway dept would build. How could anyone build this and avoid Satellite surveillance? > **[Inside the biggest Hamas tunnel ever found beneath war-torn Gaza](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12873955/Inside-biggest-Hamas-tunnel-Israel-video-underground-labyrinth-terror-chief-brother-Gaza.html)** > > Thought to stretch some 300 miles beneath the embattled Strip, Israeli soldiers have painstakingly sought to locate every tunnel in the huge network and make them unusable. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2594 "2023-12-17T23:24:04Z")
Perhaps because they are underground. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2595 "2023-12-17T23:36:15Z")
They have to bring in all the construction materials. Remove the excavated dirt. I guess the dark, cloudy nights were useful for sneaking in material. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2596 "2023-12-17T23:44:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They have to bring in all the construction materials. > Remove the excavated dirt. The tunnels likely connect buildings/garages where all you see is a vehicle driving in and out. What’s in it is unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2597 "2023-12-17T23:51:58Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > You say that everyone in Gaza is responsible for the actions of Hamas. No, I said they voted them into power. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2598 "2023-12-17T23:59:10Z")
In the last election in Gaza in 2006, Hamas won 44% of the vote. So the majority of Palestinians did not, in fact, vote for them. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-election-hamas-2006-palestine-israel/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-election-hamas-2006-palestine-israel/) In any case, you are willing to spread the blame for that election to all citizens of Gaza, including those not even born at the time, or who opposed Hamas at the time. So I will ask again if you also believe that Jewish residents of Nazi Germany should also take blame for electing the Nazis to power and also share responsibility for the actions of the Nazi government that was elected while they were citizens? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=123) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=125)