# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 125
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2599 "2023-12-18T00:20:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The tunnels likely connect buildings/garages where all you see is a vehicle driving in and out. What’s in it is unknown Sealing those tunnels will be almost impossible. They can seal the ends with heavy rebar and concrete. The volume of space inside a tunnel is huge. It’s beyond what can be pumped with a concrete truck. Flooding with Sea water is temporary. It’s going to naturally drain out. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2600 "2023-12-18T00:26:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “That is why the Scripture affirms that ‘God stops wars… [quoted by Banquet\_Bear, said apparently by the Pope] Would it were so. Been glaringly obvious all through human history that it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2601 "2023-12-18T00:33:12Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > OK if deserve has nothing to do with it, then by your logic the kids partying in the desert were the reapings of the Israeli government’s policy of putting settlement alligators in the West Bank. But the thing is: we’re _already_ living in the world where kids partying in the desert got treated that way. The people who attacked those kids _already_ decided to act like that was the case. So, ‘by that logic,’ we can put aside other stuff to say, _hey, just to make sure we’re on the same page: if you attack some kids partying in the desert, then you and yours can expect disproportionate Deserve-Has-Nothing-To-Do-With-It retaliation on a scale so big that it might even cause Susan Collins to express concern. Are we clear? If you don’t do that sort of thing, well, then don’t expect such retaliation; but if you do? Why, then, by all means: do expect that in return._ ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2602 "2023-12-18T00:51:29Z")
I will just go back to my earlier post ( though after the one you quoted) How about none of us refer to any civilian casualties on either side as being reapings? Because doing so only dehumanizes the people living there on both sides and helps perpetuate the ongoing cycle of violence. Yes, Hamas is horrible. Yes, they did a terrible thing. Yes, they need to be stopped. And yes, civilian Palestinians will die as part of those actions. But if you find yourself saying, “Hamas did it first” to defend those civilian deaths, you have already lost the moral high ground. Some of you don’t seem to care about having the moral high ground, and that’s cool, rock on space cowboy. But then don’t get your knickers in a twist when the rest of the world calls you out on it ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2603 "2023-12-18T01:03:46Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > But if you find yourself saying, “Hamas did it first” to defend those civilian deaths, you have already lost the moral high ground. If you’re offering me a choice between (a) _dying_ with, in your mind, the moral high ground and (b) _surviving,_ with or without what you see as the moral high ground — well, then, I’m in the mood for an interesting conversation, if you’re buying the drinks. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2604 "2023-12-18T01:17:27Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > In any case, you are willing to spread the blame for that election to all citizens of Gaza, No. But your analogy to Jews in Germany explains my point. All of Germany suffered from voting the Nazi party into power. The statement doesn’t mean babies or Jews voted for them. It means they all suffered because of the war generated by the Nazi party they put into power. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2605 "2023-12-18T01:24:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It means they all suffered because of the war generated by the Nazi party they put into power. …the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war were put in place in part to _stop_ needless suffering of civilians, _regardless of who is in power_. You don’t get around that by yelling “HUMAN SHIELDS!” every time you bomb a hospital or school. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2606 "2023-12-18T01:29:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war were put in place in part to _stop_ needless suffering of civilians, _regardless of who is in power_. You don’t get around that by yelling “HUMAN SHIELDS!” every time you bomb a hospital or school If things sort of keep on keeping on as they have, will there maybe come a time when you’ll get a sneaking suspicion that the way stuff actually plays out is — like unto reality blandly occurring in front of sovereign-citizen types who jab accusatory fingers at the gold fringe on a flag while claiming that, oh, no, folks can’t get around it? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2607 "2023-12-18T01:31:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If things sort of keep on keeping on as they have, will there maybe come a time when you’ll get a sneaking suspicion that the way stuff actually plays out is — like unto reality blandly occurring in front of sovereign-citizen types who jab accusatory fingers at the gold fringe on a flag while claiming that, oh, no, folks can’t get around it? …I literally have no idea what you are asking of me here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2608 "2023-12-18T01:35:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I literally have no idea what you are asking of me here. You say: “You don’t get around that by yelling “HUMAN SHIELDS!” every time you bomb a hospital or school”. I’m asking: what will be your response if schools and hospitals do keep getting bombed, and ‘HUMAN SHIELDS’ does keep getting yelled — again and again and again and again? Would you, hypothetically, come to wonder, _huh, is it possible that they are getting around that?_ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2609 "2023-12-18T01:36:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Would you, hypothetically, come to wonder, _huh, is it possible that they are getting around that?_ …who is “they”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2610 "2023-12-18T01:38:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > who is “they”? Anyone who — as you say — yells HUMAN SHIELDS while bombing schools and hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2611 "2023-12-18T01:45:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Anyone who — as you say — yells HUMAN SHIELDS while bombing schools and hospitals. …I’ve posted pretty extensively in this thread, cited newspaper articles, flash reports, independent testimony from eye witnesses, UN staffing, Doctors without Borders, and IDF statements. The evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates that hospitals in Gaza have been bombed, placed under siege and then taken out of action in ways that are not in accordance with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. Its the job of Israel and the IDF to _justify_ targeting a hospital. And they are obligated to, once they eliminate the threat, do everything to not disrupt the hospital continuing to look after their patients. That plainly hasn’t happened here. Over 20 hospitals have been taken out of action, medical staff, patients and people sheltering in the hospitals were forcibly expelled, equipment and infrastructure destroyed. It literally happened a few days ago. So I still don’t understand your question. I’m not interested in hypotheticals. I’m discussion what has actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2612 "2023-12-18T01:47:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war were put in place in part to _stop_ needless suffering of civilians, _regardless of who is in power_. You don’t get around that by yelling “HUMAN SHIELDS!” every time you bomb a hospital or school. You don’t get around them by attacking a music festival either. It’s how wars are started. This war is being fought from within civilian infrastructure. If Hamas worked for the benefit of Palestinians they would evacuate them. This has not happened. So the best the Israelis can do is warn the populous of an impending attack. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2613 "2023-12-18T01:47:24Z")
You don’t appreciate the rest of my statement there. Israel can go full Curtis LeMay on Gaza, you do you, I understand how the game is played. But then Israel needs to STFU when the rest of the world calls them out on it, just like the US gets called out on their stupidity. The days of Israel being the scrappy underdog are long gone. Israel isn’t special. Right now it is just another second rate regional bully turning it’s neighbors into rubble. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2614 "2023-12-18T01:50:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So I still don’t understand your question. I’m not interested in hypotheticals. I’m discussion what has actually happened. And what interests me is discussing: what will you conclude if they continue to do stuff that you say they’re obligated not to do, and — the world pretty much shrugs? Maybe fingers get wagged? Maybe people keep saying This Is Not In Accordance With The Conventions And Laws? Maybe people keep saying It Is The Job Of Israel And The IDF To Justify This, and — that’s _all that happens,_ they just keep doing it while some people keep saying stuff like that? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2615 "2023-12-18T01:51:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You don’t get around them by attacking a music festival either. …the civilians in Gaza _didn’t attack a music festival._ > [@Magiver](#): > > This war is being fought from within civilian infrastructure. And this doesn’t remove Israel’s obligation as the occupying power under the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. > [@Magiver](#): > > If Hamas worked for the benefit of Palestinians they would evacuate them. 1.9 million people out of 2.2 million people _have already been evacuated_. Now where do you want them to go? > [@Magiver](#): > > This has not happened. Incorrect. > [@Magiver](#): > > So the best the Israelis can do is warn the populous of an impending attack. That is certainly _not_ the best they can do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2616 "2023-12-18T01:58:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the civilians in Gaza _didn’t attack a music festival._ This is baseless argument. Every single war ever has involved civilian losses. If they are harder hit because their government’s methodology is guerilla warfare using their own homes then that’s how the war is going to play out. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2617 "2023-12-18T01:58:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And what interests me is discussing: what will you conclude if they continue to do stuff that you say they’re obligated not to do, and — the world pretty much shrugs? Maybe fingers get wagged? Maybe people keep saying This Is Not In Accordance With The Conventions And Laws? Maybe people keep saying It Is The Job Of Israel And The IDF To Justify This, and — that’s _all that happens,_ they just keep doing it while some people keep saying stuff like that? …I’m sorry, were you actually asking me to solve all of the problems in the Middle East? Was that what your question was all about? Why do you think I’d waste my time playing that game? I’m pointing out that Israel has committed multiple war crimes during this war, including the siege, including the systematic way they have shut down hospitals one-by-one. That’s part of what this thread is all about. Also, I have been restricted in this thread from commenting on certain things that would add more context to my answer. So I can’t address that anyway. So even if I wanted to give you an answer, I couldn’t do so here. I’ll continue to put pressure on my government to call for a cease-fire. I’ll do what I can in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2618 "2023-12-18T02:00:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is baseless argument. …no it isn’t. It directly responded to the argument _you_ made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=124) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=126)