# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 126
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2619 "2023-12-18T02:04:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ll continue to put pressure on my government to call for a cease-fire. I’ll do what I can in the real world. How does that defeat Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2620 "2023-12-18T02:05:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m sorry, were you actually asking me to solve all of the problems in the Middle East? No. I’m merely asking what your response will be if (a) like you say, schools and hospitals keep getting bombed, and (b) while people keep _saying_ that’s a violation of law, and something something _obligation,_ and something something _accordance,_ such bombings simply — continue. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2621 "2023-12-18T02:15:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How does that defeat Hamas? …committing multiple war crimes, starving millions of people, destroying infrastructure, churches, Mosques, schools, universities, _will not defeat Hamas_. I want the war crimes to stop on both sides. I want to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe, something that every single humanitarian group on the ground is warning is already happening. A ceasefire is simply the first step in preventing famine, giving the hospital system a chance to recover, allowing aid to get to people who need it. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No. I’m merely asking what your response will be if (a) like you say, schools and hospitals keep getting bombed, and (b) while people keep _saying_ that’s a violation of law, and something something _obligation,_ and something something _accordance,_ such bombings simply — continue. What do you want me to say? I literally still don’t understand the question. I’ll keep responding the same way I have since the start of this war, since the start of this thread. My position remains unchanged. _History_ will be the ultimate judge. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2622 "2023-12-18T02:23:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And this doesn’t remove Israel’s obligation as the occupying power under the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. Geneva? How many divisions do they have? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2623 "2023-12-18T02:23:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Geneva? How many divisions do they have? …can you clarify your question please. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2624 "2023-12-18T03:20:19Z")
[“How many divisions has the Pope?”](https://wordhistories.net/2019/08/23/how-many-divisions-pope/) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2625 "2023-12-18T03:24:39Z")
…then it has nothing to do with anything I said. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2626 "2023-12-18T03:26:45Z")
…then you didn’t understand Smapti’s point, but I’ll let that Doper explain. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2627 "2023-12-18T03:33:54Z")
…my point is that Israel has committed _multiple war crimes_. Is that something you agree with, or disagree with? Because I’m not interested in a philosophical debate about “moral strength”, nor am I interested in taking this thread further off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2628 "2023-12-18T04:13:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …my point is that Israel has committed _multiple war crimes_. Is that something you agree with, or disagree with? But the things you’re accusing Israel of aren’t in the Geneva Conventions directly, right? They’re in Protocol 1 which neither Israel nor Hamas has ratified. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2629 "2023-12-18T04:25:44Z")
@Magiver and @The_Other_Waldo_Pepper are making arguments that stay safely in the bounds of Might Makes Right. I don’t think they venture any further than that. Which, y’know, spiffy, but it’s not a particularly interesting discussion; the moral arc of humanity is to move slowly toward a world in which the Might-Makes-Right brigade loses all power and influence. We’re a lot closer to that world than we were 500 years ago, but it’s clear we have a long way to go. I explicitly distinguish between their arguments and the ones made by @Alessan, @Babale, and others, who recognize the importance of human rights and respecting them, even if we disagree on the particulars. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2630 "2023-12-18T04:43:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > @Magiver and @The_Other_Waldo_Pepper are making arguments that stay safely in the bounds of Might Makes Right. I think that’s what they’re saying, though I think it would be more accurate to describe the situation as “Daddy’s Might Makes Right”. If Israel didn’t get all the military and financial help from the US, I don’t think they’d be gloating about their military might. It’s like two kids that hate each other for a long time, and one’s dad is much stronger that the other’s, and the kid with the weaker dad attacks the one with the strong dad, and the strong dad helps his kid pummel the other one. Yes, you are pummeling the other kid, but everyone knows it’s because your dad is helping out, so don’t gloat about your power. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2631 "2023-12-18T04:46:47Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > It’s like two kids that hate each other for a long time, and one’s dad is much stronger that the other’s, and the kid with the weaker dad attacks the one with the strong dad, and the strong dad helps his kid pummel the other one. The essential, crucial problem with this analogy is that the one kid doesn’t attack the other: the one kid attack’s the other’s baby sibling, and then the other kid attacks the first kid’s baby sibling. It’s not just two parties attacking each other. It’s the civilians getting killed. If it were just IDF and Hamas going at each other, it’d be so, so much less awful. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2632 "2023-12-18T04:48:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Geneva? How many divisions do they have? If Israel wants to beat the shit out of the Palestinians, while ignoring any morality in their approach since the Geneva conventions “don’t have any divisions”, why are Israelis taken aback when people call their actions war crimes? If they don’t care what the world thinks of their actions, why accuse people of anti-semitism when they complain about what’s going on in Gaza. Shouldn’t the response be “We don’t care. We have the army, world opinion can suck eggs”, instead of feeling attacked by morality questions? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2633 "2023-12-18T04:49:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > then it has nothing to do with anything I said. You keep insisting that Israel is violating the Geneva Convention as if that means anything. To which I ask, how many divisons do they have - I.e., who’s gonna do something about it? Why should they worry about violating a code that their enemy doesn’t adhere to? Is someone going to invade Israel and put its leadership on trial? A law that cannot be enforced and which has no consequences for violating it isn’t a law, it’s a list of suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2634 "2023-12-18T04:51:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You keep insisting that Israel is violating the Geneva Convention as if that means anything. To which I ask, how many divisons do they have - I.e., who’s gonna do something about it? Why should they worry about violating a code that their enemy doesn’t adhere to? Is someone going to invade Israel and put its leadership on trial? You’re seriously asking why Israelis should care about world opinion when a country commits war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2635 "2023-12-18T04:52:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re seriously asking why Israelis should care about world opinion when a country commits war crimes? I’m asking whether the phrase “war crime” even has any meaning or is useful when there’s noone with the power to punish violators. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2636 "2023-12-18T04:53:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No. I’m merely asking what your response will be if (a) like you say, schools and hospitals keep getting bombed, and (b) while people keep _saying_ that’s a violation of law, and something something _obligation,_ and something something _accordance,_ such bombings simply — continue. It’s 1941 and a German asks a non-German: _“what your response will be if (a) like you say we shouldn’t invade other countries and kill people, and (b) while people keep saying that’s a violation of law, and something something obligation, and something something accordance, such invasions simply — continue”_ @The_Other_Waldo_Pepper are you saying that in the above situation, if the allies didn’t have the power to fight back to stop Germany and the Nazis, that things would be hunky dory because the Nazis have the power, so it’s OK for them to do anything even if the world is telling them it’s immoral? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2637 "2023-12-18T04:54:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m asking whether the phrase “war crime” even has any meaning or is useful when there’s noone with the power to punish violators. But of course there are people with the power to punish violators. Other nations can withhold aid, or impose economic sanctions, or engage in other actions. Not all punishments involve bombs. And Israel has a very vested interest in a strong world community that protects civilians from war crimes. It’s kind of part of the nation’s founding. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2638 "2023-12-18T04:55:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But of course there are people with the power to punish violators. Other nations can withhold aid, or impose economic sanctions, or engage in other actions. Has any of that prevented Russia from targeting civilians? Or Hamas, for that matter? And isn’t punishing an entire nation for the actions of its leaders one of those things we’re engaged in stern finger-wagging about in the first place? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=125) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=127)