# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 129
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2679 "2023-12-18T17:45:32Z")
The following is what I can glean from Al Jazeera and other on-line media. The IDF was uninvolved in any immediate response to the border break out. The border remained open most of the day. The IDF was either incompetent, uninterested or part of a conspiracy. Take your pick. Oct 7 was a coordinated attack by 5 elements of Gazan society: Hamas Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine Gazans, opportunists and criminals Rocket barrage at 6:30AM Attack began with breach of border fence at 7:40 First IDF response was a 9:40 air attack on Gaza Response to dispersed attack was by local police and off duty IDF Many security casualties were at 3 military installations where there was actual combat There was two way traffic across the border from 7:40 AM into the afternoon Captured and looted items were paraded in Gaza by returning attackers The fence was closed by evening 372 security personnel including police and on duty military were killed by Gazan and friendly fire 766 civilians were killed by Gazan and friendly fire Friendly fire figures were probably typical. For the US it’s around 40%. That would leave about 500 civilians killed by Gazan forces. About 200 of those are IDF reservists hiding among civilians. Which means maybe 300 civilians killed by Gazan action. The military claim that all of the attackers were killed is absurd - did the hostages walk to Gaza unattended? The 240 hostages included captured IDF who would have to be guarded and elderly, sick and children who would have to be assisted. Most of these people would have been attempting to escape. It would have required hundreds to transport that number of hostages into shelters in Gaza. The IDF claims they recovered 1500 bodies. That could be 1100 Israelis and 400 attackers and that sounds reasonable. A horrible event, but not justification for incinerating tens of thousands of Gazan civilians. And, at every step a grinding embarrassment for the IDF. **So, what could have been done other than devastation of Gaza?** If the goal is really defense of Israel, then launch a massive investigation and restructuring of the IDF. Why was such a tastey target as a music festival allowed right next to the border at a location the IDF knew was a Hamas target? Why was there no added security? Why was there no force dedicated to interdiction if the electronic systems detected the border had been breached? What did the 9:40 AM air attack have to do with the battles going on at internal military installations? WTF was the IDF doing that had anything to do with the border breach and internal security. The IDF is a monolith that decides how funds are distributed. There are no services that compete for funds and mission responsibility like border security. It needs to be broken up so funds are distributed to meet mission responsibility needs rather than what some elites think is in their best interest. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2680 "2023-12-18T17:48:47Z")
Ok, that’s reasonable. I’d just day in the chaos of war it’s inevitable that some soldiers are going to do inexcusable things. They should be prosecuted, but it’s going to happen. With that, I’m regretting joining this thread. I’ve made my point and will probably withdraw. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2681 "2023-12-18T17:59:18Z")
One of the returned hostages mentioned the hamas guys stealing vehicles from the kibbutz to return to Gaza with hostages. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2682 "2023-12-18T18:46:45Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Why should I? I’m not Jewish. With the end of the Cold War, Israel doesn’t give us a non-Communist partner in the region. For pure self-interest, there’s still Iran as a threat, which Israel is an excellent bulwark against. > [@](#): > > I’m not really swayed by the whole “support a Democracy” argument when Israel is busy killing people and denying equal rights to Palestinians. Arabs who are citizens of Israel have full equal rights. Arabs who are not citizens of Israel shouldn’t expect to have rights in the Israeli legal system that a citizen has. > [@](#): > > And not to put too fine a point on it, but the last couple of wars that the US has been sucked into were at least some part due to our support of Israel. That’s simply not true. The radical Islamic groups such as al Qaeda and ISIS and the government of Iran are against the Western world in general, and if Israel hadn’t existed, America and other western countries would still have been involved in wars against them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2683 "2023-12-18T18:56:31Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > And not to put too fine a point on it, but the last couple of wars that the US has been sucked into were at least some part due to our support of Israel. And if we just let Hitler have the Sudetenland we’ll have peace in our time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2684 "2023-12-18T19:11:09Z")
The recent killings of the hostages by IDF soldiers, plus the killing of the Israeli hero Castleman a couple of weeks ago, makes me strongly suspect that there is a significant element of the Israeli far-right within the IDF. Both of those incidents appeared to consist of IDF soldiers executing obviously defenseless people who they thought were Hamas terrorists (or possibly even just ordinary Gazans). Sure, hindsight and all, but it seems clear that many Israelis think it’s fine to kill enemy combatants who present no threat, and thus it shouldn’t be terribly surprising that some IDF members think this as well. If this is so, this element will need to be removed from the IDF and other security services – we can add this to the big pile of things, which includes removing Hamas, replacing Netanyahu, and making some clear and coherent path to a 2 state solution, without which Israel will never have long-term security. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2685 "2023-12-18T19:18:23Z")
Al Jazeera had a video of a stolen (captured) troop carrier that might have carried hostages, but even that requires a driver and guards. So, it’s at least one to one. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2686 "2023-12-18T19:29:26Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > For pure self-interest, there’s still Iran as a threat, which Israel is an excellent bulwark against. How exactly is Israel a bulwark against Iran? If Israel did not exist, what would Iran do that it can’t do now? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2687 "2023-12-18T19:31:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure, hindsight and all, but it seems clear that many Israelis think it’s fine to kill enemy combatants who present no threat, and thus it shouldn’t be terribly surprising that some IDF members think this as well. I would be terrified going into action in Gaza, knowing that a bunch of guys hiding in tunnels would like nothing better to jump out and lop off my head. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2688 "2023-12-18T19:33:10Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s simply not true. The radical Islamic groups such as al Qaeda and ISIS and the government of Iran are against the Western world in general, and if Israel hadn’t existed, America and other western countries would still have been involved in wars against them. That may be true, but can you agree that the Israel/Palestine situation is an excellent PR recruiting tool for them? It may be a sham, and they don’t really care about Palestinians, but it’s a great way to fire people up and join them in their fight against the West. Not sure how successful they would have been without this. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2689 "2023-12-18T19:34:29Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would be terrified going into action in Gaza, knowing that a bunch of guys hiding in tunnels would like nothing better to jump out and lop off my head. So you just shoot at shirtless people walking towards you? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2690 "2023-12-18T19:50:47Z")
Hell, I’d probably shoot at everything. I frighten easily. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2691 "2023-12-19T01:44:24Z")
21 posts were split to a new topic: [US support of Israel (from Hamas war discussion thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2699 "2023-12-18T22:46:12Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > That may be true, but can you agree that the Israel/Palestine situation is an excellent PR recruiting tool for them? It may be a sham, and they don’t really care about Palestinians, but it’s a great way to fire people up and join them in their fight against the West. Not sure how successful they would have been without this. I don’t agree. These groups are driven not by Palestinian vs Israel rhetoric but by moralistic Islam vs western decadence rhetoric. They tend to tack the Palestinian issue on after they kill a lot of people and hope that it will win over some hearts and minds. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2706 "2023-12-19T00:10:26Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > s far as I can tell they had two options. (1) do nothing and passively wait for the next attack. (2) Do what they are doing now, that is fight a brutal urban conflict against an enemy entrenched in the civilian population. If they choose option 2, hospitals churches and schools will be destroyed and many people, many children, will die horribly. …I just want to make it clear what the two options that you have presented here are. 1. Do nothing. 2. Do war crimes My question to you is…why do you think that these are the only two choices here? Why would you think it would be impossible to wage a war that didn’t involve the forced displacement of 1.9 out of 2.3 million people? The deliberate shutting down of 22 out of 31 hospitals? Starvation as a weapon of war? > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If you can think of a third option, great. I’m all ears. But please be specific. Don’t just say “They should fight by the rules of war” or “They should minimize civilian casualties.” Say how. This is an unreasonable demand. For starters, it’s trivially easy to present a third option to either doing nothing, or to do war-crimes. That third option is to “do something without committing the war-crimes.” And its okay for Human Rights Watch to say “yes, you have the right to conduct your war, but stop using starvation as a weapon.”: Its okay for the World Health Organization to say “yes, you have the right to conduct your war, but stop shutting down hospitals, stop destroying ambulances, stop killing medical staff, allow safe corridors for medical supplies, food and water.” Its okay for UNRWA to say “yes, you have the right to conduct your war, but stop blowing up our schools that are sheltering thousands of people.” They don’t need to be specific. The parameters on how to conduct a war without committing warcrimes are _right there_. The IDF can google them. It takes less than a few seconds. And there is nothing wrong with pointing them out. “You can have your war, just stop committing warcrimes” is a perfectly valid position to hold. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Of course you can pick option 1 and feel good about your Gandhi like morality. From Martin Griffiths, UN’s under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs: > [@](#): > > He explains the reasoning behind the words “worst ever”. Many places have “terrible” suffering, but at least those affected can flee. In Gaza, “people can’t leave . . . No family can plan for their future . . . I see these things all over the world, but this is beyond my imagination. And it will get worse.” Indeed the human catastrophe is entering a new phase: “it is disease, hunger that is beginning to be the lead cause of death and deprivation.” The death toll from disease could be multiples of that from fighting and air strikes. But the latter may also have been dramatically undercounted so far. “We’ve yet to see what’s under the rubble. These estimates of [around 18,000] dead — once you start digging under the rubble, the statistics change radically. In the case of [February’s] Turkish earthquake, the number of those dead doubled.” > **[UN aid chief Martin Griffiths: ‘The war in Gaza isn’t halfway through’](https://www.ft.com/content/01b592be-47c7-4a20-9bbd-621aa40f7640)** > > Official describes ‘worst ever’ humanitarian crisis as challenges mount for relief efforts People aren’t calling for a ceasefire because they have " Gandhi like morality." Its because the experts are suggesting that the death toll from bombing is likely _twice_ what the official numbers are because of what is still buried under the rubble. That disease and hunger will soon eclipse the death toll from the bombing. We are beyond the crisis point. If this war continues as is, we are looking at potentially _hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths._ > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > But I don’t think that’s appealing to people who have watched there friends and neighbors murdered in brutal fashion. You do understand that Palestinians living outside of Gaza have been basically watching live-streams of their friends and relatives being murdered in brutal fashion over the last seventy days? Do you not think they count? This is Loay Elbasyouni. He was an engineer for the first unmanned flight on Mars for NASA. He posted this yesterday: > [@](#): > > My parents are dying in Gaza and no one cares. > My mom had one cup water in last 24 hours, she is trying to save the water for my sick dad, my dad is losing his breath, Everyone deserted them. > They miraculously survived several artillery shells. I’m not sure why I’m tweeting > Are you aware of the trauma that is being collectively shared by Palestinians _outside_ of Gaza right now? If they speak out, _they risk their jobs_. Waking up every morning checking their social feeds to see if their family are still alive. Hearing the stories of how many of them are now _starving to death_. And there is nothing they can do. Is this the only way to conduct this war? Do you really believe that there was no other way? That this is inevitable? That his parents should be condemned to die in this horrible, lonely way? This was supposed to be a war on Hamas. Yet no one can tell you how many Hamas soldiers have been killed, how many Hamas bases have been captured. Instead we’ve seen forced relocations to the south. Rafah is the most densely populated place in Gaza right now. Hospitals in the north have been taken out of action. Centuries-old-churches and Mosques destroyed. Universities destroyed. Historical records destroyed. A siege that has lasted over seventy days. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t know if @tofor 's plan of Isolating hospitals first would work, or decrease human suffering. Why have they targeted hospitals? The claims that these were Hamas bases haven’t held up. So why isolate hospitals in the first place? Why not just continue to let them operate? Let people get surgery. Let mothers give birth to babies in relative safety. Let people get cancer care. What strategic value is there in not allowing this? How does this target Hamas? > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I’m just tired of people saying “This is horrible!” and stopping there. I’m sorry you are tired, but I’m not going to stop. Because I was quite clear at the start of this thread that this was where this was heading. That this was the inevitable consequences of the tactics and the strategy that Israel had adopted. When you cut off food, electricity, water, medical supplies, when you target hospitals, this is where you are going to end up. I was shouted down at the start of this thread. And now the new version of “shouting down” is the “laws of war don’t really exist”, or “I’m tired of people saying ‘this is horrible’ and stopping there.” I’m telling you “its horrible” _now_ because as horrible as it is now, its going to get _worse_. If the siege continues (and there is no sign of the siege being let up any time soon) you are going to get mass death from famine and disease. You are going to get attempted break-outs over the border into Egypt that will create a whole new set of problems. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > But again, what are the other options for Israel to prevent another October 7th aside from brutal urban warfare? This didn’t _start_ on October 7th. You can’t ignore the brutality Palestinians have suffered under occupation for decades. That doesn’t _excuse_ October 7th. I condemn Hamas for what they did on that day. It was indisputably evil. _Everybody_ agrees that Israel had a right to respond. But Israel has decided to respond in a way that has displaced 1.9 million people, destroyed essential infrastructure and historical buildings and records, effectively broken the healthcare system, and are now starving millions of innocent civilians. That isn’t what I would call “brutal urban warfare.” It’s something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2710 "2023-12-19T00:31:45Z")
Ok boss. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2711 "2023-12-19T00:36:49Z")
…an update from WHO on the hospital where Donya Abu Mohsen was killed a few days ago: > [@Tedros](#): > > Girl killed, 2 children injured following attacks on Nasser Hospital in south [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click); health workers fear for their lives – > > [@WHO](https://twitter.com/WHO) > > mission finds. A WHO, > > [@UNOCHA](https://twitter.com/UNOCHA) > > and > > [@UNDSS](https://twitter.com/UNDSS) > > team, on a mission to Nasser Hospital in south Gaza today, found deeply concerning conditions following attacks on Sunday which left a young female patient dead in the pediatric unit, and injured two more children. Nasser’s ability to function has deteriorated drastically since WHO’s last visit on 7 December. More than 1000 patients and 4000 internally displaced people are sheltering there. Health workers told WHO colleagues they fear for their lives and are not sure how long they can remain safely at Nasser. > Nasser is in the south, it’s the main hospital in Khan Yunis, the area that Gazans were told to head to “because it was safe” at the start of the war. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2712 "2023-12-19T01:45:08Z")
Several posts moved to a new thread > [@US support of Israel (from Hamas war discussion thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802): > > I’m not 100% clear on where you going with that comment, besides there being a lot of Nazi references being dropped in here recently. That still doesn’t answer my question - why should the US be paying over $3.3 billion a year to support Israel? And that is before any extra war costs get tossed in by Congress in the next few weeks. What am I getting out of this deal? When we aren’t pouring money into either Afghanistan or now Ukraine, Israel is the #1 recipient of US foreign aid, getting 11% of… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2713 "2023-12-19T08:57:53Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If you can think of a third option, great. I’m all ears. If they have to take over a hospital the could actually _take over_ the hospital - that is, send in medical personal to take care of the remaining patients, those who were unable to evacuate, and to take care of the civilians who will gravitate towards the hospital because where else do you go for care and shelter. Instead, they wreck the place and then walk out, leaving people to die. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Maybe maybe not. I suspect it wouldn’t make that much difference. The hospitals would still be besieged. There’s a difference between being “besieged” and “bombed into rubble”. Reports are that the IDF doesn’t just enter a hospital, they deliberately wreck everything inside of it - truly question the necessity of that. And after they’ve bombed and wrecked things they simply walk away and abandon it which is all kinds of wrong. It’s a norm among the West that in war wounded enemy are also cared for. If Israel decides not to do that the West is going to criticize them harshly. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2714 "2023-12-19T09:19:44Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > I am no longer interested in my taxpayer dollars going towards Israel continuing to kill Palestinians with no end game in sight. Why should I? I’m not Jewish. You don’t have to qualify that - I’m Jewish and I’m not interested in that, either. Our tax dollars should not be support apartheid and genocide. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > I’m not really swayed by the whole “support a Democracy” argument when Israel is busy killing people and denying equal rights to Palestinians. ^ That, right there, is why I am not a supporter of the current Israeli government and power structure. Not to mention that under Netanyahu Israel is sliding towards dictatorship and repression. I’m becoming more and more convinced that no person should run a nation for longer than 10 years and Netanyahu is approaching 20. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Arabs who are citizens of Israel have full equal rights. Sure… and in the US Black citizens have had full equal rights since the end of the Civil War… on paper. In actual reality they did not and are still not treated equally by all. Same for Arab-Israelis who are, let’s face it, Palestianians with Israeli citizenship. Lots of Israelis still see them as the enemy even when they aren’t. Arab citizens and Jewish citizens live in separate neighborhoods and seldom to never interact. Yes, there are exceptions but they’re notable precisely because they are exceptions. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The recent killings of the hostages by IDF soldiers, plus the killing of the Israeli hero Castleman a couple of weeks ago, makes me strongly suspect that there is a significant element of the Israeli far-right within the IDF. Both of those incidents appeared to consist of IDF soldiers executing obviously defenseless people who they thought were Hamas terrorists (or possibly even just ordinary Gazans). Sure, hindsight and all, but it seems clear that many Israelis think it’s fine to kill enemy combatants who present no threat, and thus it shouldn’t be terribly surprising that some IDF members think this as well. Far right types are always attracted to the military. You’ve noted several instances of the IDF murdering (because that’s what it is) people who are defenseless and/or surrendering. One, sure, shit happens in war but this is becoming a pattern. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would be terrified going into action in Gaza, knowing that a bunch of guys hiding in tunnels would like nothing better to jump out and lop off my head. Any time soldiers go into combat they’re facing “a bunch of guys” who want to kill them, often in horrifying ways. How is that different than “a bunch of guys” in trenches, or sniping from buildings, or dropping bombs from above, or advancing in tanks, or minefields, or… yeah, war sucks and it’s scary and terrifying. Hamas aren’t comic books villains with superpowers, they ordinary humans facing off against ordinary humans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=128) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=130)