# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 132
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2755 "2023-12-20T01:21:09Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Germans began two world wars, but they developed a national conscience. I believe enough Palestinians have been educated from birth to hate Jews that it will not happen in their case. Then they will be invited to move. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2756 "2023-12-20T01:24:43Z")
Question for the unequivocal supporters of the IDF’s methods: If it will take killing all 2 million people in Gaza to get rid of Hamas, would you be OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2757 "2023-12-20T01:25:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe enough Palestinians have been educated from birth to hate Jews that it will not happen in their case. It’s embedded in their government since 1988 (Gaza government which is Hamas). 35 years it has been their mantra. [Half of the population of Gaza is under the age of 18.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict) > **Hamas Covenant 1988** > > Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). > > \< snip \> > > **Article Twenty-Eight:** > > The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion. > > Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine. > > As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do. > > We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that “Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.” > > Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.” - [SOURCE](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) (There’s lots more to that document, of course. Click on the link for the whole thing.) ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2758 "2023-12-20T01:42:00Z")
So what is the end game here if you don’t believe that they will surrender? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2759 "2023-12-20T01:44:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > > Germans began two world wars, but they developed a national conscience. I believe enough Palestinians have been educated from birth to hate Jews that it will not happen in their case. > > Then they will be invited to move. Just for laughs, where do you suggest they move to? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2760 "2023-12-20T01:45:27Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > So what is the end game here if you don’t believe that they will surrender? The question is what do the Palestinians believe. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2761 "2023-12-20T01:46:25Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If it will take killing all 2 million people in Gaza to get rid of Hamas, would you be OK with that? That’s a fairly absurd scenario, so I feel comfortable in saying that no, the total extermination of the Gazan population would not be jusfitied. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2762 "2023-12-20T01:47:29Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Just for laughs, where do you suggest they move to? It’s not up to me. If they’re not going to stop attacking Israel That’s up to them. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2763 "2023-12-20T01:56:37Z")
I just want[quote=“Magiver, post:2762, topic:991317, full:true”] > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Just for laughs, where do you suggest they move to? It’s not up to me. If they’re not going to stop attacking Israel That’s up to them. [/quote] I just want to clarify that my original question about not surrendering was for Carnivorousplant. Replying to a reply does get a bit circular at times. Your answer is of course welcome. Follow up question to you though, I assume you are referring to all Palestinians moving, not just Hamas. And I also assume moving back to their previous homes in what is now Israel isn’t the answer you are looking for even though you say it is up to them? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2764 "2023-12-20T02:02:41Z")
I’m curious, how many different ways can they say that they don’t care until you believe them? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2765 "2023-12-20T02:04:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not up to me. If they’re not going to stop attacking Israel That’s up to them And if they don’t move, then what? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2766 "2023-12-20T02:15:08Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > I just want to clarify that my original question about not surrendering was for Carnivorousplant. I’m sorry, I missed that. Would you remind me? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2767 "2023-12-20T02:24:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Germans began two world wars, but they developed a national conscience. I believe enough Palestinians have been educated from birth to hate Jews that it will not happen in their case. Here is the quote in question. If you don’t think that the Palestinians will surrender, how does this end? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2768 "2023-12-20T02:30:39Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > And if they don’t move, then what? How does any war end if someone doesn’t give up? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2769 "2023-12-20T02:36:46Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > If you don’t think that the Palestinians will surrender, how does this end? I cannot answer for @carnivorousplant but my take is it never ends. As I posted above, Hamas has as their goal the obliteration of Israel. Not some wishy-washy goal…a literal, written down goal. Even if you think Israel is wrong they will simply not pack up and leave nor will they just walk into the sea because Palestinians wish it so. Maybe the way Israel was formed was wrong. But that ship sailed long, long ago. Neither side seems keen on a resolution. It has been worked at for 40 years or more and it has failed every time. It is not just Israel and Palestine…it is global powers at work who never want to see peace happen there. Iran, Russia, Turkey, Syria, Egypt to name a few. They will always throw a wrench in the works to make sure peace never happens. Heck, people in Israel and Gaza are opposed to it (See: Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination by an Israeli citizen because Rabin was working for peace). And then you look at a map and see Israel is completely surrounded by enemies literally dedicated to their destruction. Something they tried very hard to do on several occasions. Israel are not saints. Netanyahu is a super creep. But how do you think Israel solves this problem? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2770 "2023-12-20T02:44:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why, it’s almost as if a war were going on or something. …do you believe humiliation, beatings and torture are things that should be used by either party in a war? > [@Magiver](#): > > that had zero to do with what you quoted for response. You then followed it with a dumpster dump of information. It has everything to do with what I quoted for response. Televised confessions have almost always been used for one purpose only: _propaganda_. There isn’t any other evidence that Kamal Adwan hospital was being used as a command centre. _Just this confession_. But there is a shit-ton of evidence that Kamal Adwan was a working hospital with patients and doctors and nurses right up until it was raided by the IDF. And Israeli force’s well-documented use of humiliation, beatings and torture are _absolutely_ relevant here. I provided _multiple_ citations. And I can provide many more if you are still in doubt. Do you need them? Do you accept that this happens? Or do you still need convincing? Because knowing how routine this is, and that every Palestinian has a story about when they have been detained, or when family have been detained and what happened to them, why would you believe a televised confession? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2771 "2023-12-20T02:44:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you believe humiliation, beatings and torture are things that should be used by either party in a war? Name a war where neither has happened on both sides. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2772 "2023-12-20T02:52:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Name a war where neither has happened on both sides. …what kind of answer is this? Humiliation, beatings and torture are _war crimes_. What happened at Abu Ghraib were _war crimes_. The humiliation, beatings and torture of Palestinian detainees happens both in times of war, and outside of war as well. Its happening on the West Bank _right now_. I’ll ask my question again. Its a yes or no answer. Do you believe humiliation, beatings and torture are things that should be used by either party in a war? An additional question: Do you believe humiliation, beatings and torture are things that should be used by either party _outside_ of war, as Israel has done in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2773 "2023-12-20T02:53:08Z")
What I believe has no bearing on the reality of war. If you want to go on about “war crimes”, then call the War Police and file a report. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2774 "2023-12-20T02:55:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I believe has no bearing on the reality of war. …but what do you believe? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=131) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=133)