# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 133
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2775 "2023-12-20T02:56:13Z")
The only viable solution is a two state solution. But of course that is impossible for many of those concerned. Which means, until some unforseen change, most likely a leader willing to take the risk to try a different solution than the same failures of 40 years, it is an endless war. Not continuous, just never ending. However, if it is a never ending war, and people in this conversation understand that, what is to be gained by the continued slaughter at this point? People say they don’t want to kill everyone in Gaza, but if there is no chance of the Palestinians surrendering, why continue the killing at all? Is there a magic number of dead Palestinians in this specific round of fighting that needs to be reached? Is Hamas going to pop up wearing Hamas T-shirts so the IDF knows who to kill this time? Which is why I have asked that the US bow out. I’ve seen the Frank Gorshin episode of Star Trek, I don’t feel any need to pay for the live version. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2776 "2023-12-20T03:09:07Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > …it is an endless war. Not continuous, just never ending. > > However, if it is a never ending war, and people in this conversation understand that, what is to be gained by the continued slaughter at this point? War is like that. A never-ending war is just more of that. It’s not rational and people who just want to go about their lives get caught up in it. Sucks. I think it boils down to people wanting your stuff. Russia and Ukraine. China and Taiwan. US and lots of places. History is replete with one group going after another for their stuff. Seems a human condition. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2777 "2023-12-20T03:10:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Ted Cruz is an American official, but that doesn’t mean everything he says is the official policy of the US government. OK, so how about [Netanyahu](https://sarajevotimes.com/israeli-pm-tried-to-justify-the-killing-of-palestinians-remember-what-our-bible-says/#:~:text=Israeli%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu%20on%20Sunday%20invoked,to%20you%2C%20says%20our%20Holy%20Bible%2C%E2%80%9D%20Netanyahu%20said.): Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday invoked the theory of ‘Amalek’, a nation in the Hebrew Bible, to justify the killing of Gazans in a war between Israel and Hamas that has killed more than 1,400 Israelis and 8,000 people in Gaza. “You must remember what Amalek did to you, says our Holy Bible,” Netanyahu said. The quote Netanyahu refers to is the book of Samuel in chapter 15 verse 3: “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2778 "2023-12-20T03:18:44Z")
Netanyahu is a dick. He has shown he will do whatever is necessary for him to keep power. His shtick was that he was the guy to keep Israel safe. Obviously, he failed spectacularly at that. So, now he is playing the strong guy who will defeat their enemy. Like I said…he’s a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2779 "2023-12-20T03:30:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > he’s a dick. Yep, the PM may be a dick but he is still the PM ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2780 "2023-12-20T03:32:49Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > OK, so how about [Netanyahu](https://sarajevotimes.com/israeli-pm-tried-to-justify-the-killing-of-palestinians-remember-what-our-bible-says/#:~:text=Israeli%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu%20on%20Sunday%20invoked,to%20you%2C%20says%20our%20Holy%20Bible%2C%E2%80%9D%20Netanyahu%20said.) Netanyahu is the Trump of Israel at this point and he needs to be voted out and sentenced to prison for his crimes. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but what do you believe? What I know is that there’s never been a war in history where the people living in the contested area have been able to go about their lives undisturbed, and shouting about how it’s “illegal” won’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2781 "2023-12-20T03:34:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Netanyahu is the Trump of Israel at this point and he needs to be voted out and sentenced to prison for his crimes. No argument there, but he speaks for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2782 "2023-12-20T03:35:24Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > No argument there, but he speaks for Israel. Hopefully not for long. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2783 "2023-12-20T03:41:58Z")
Sure, we are agreed. But if this war is neverending, the US support of Israel can’t really matter that much then, can it? Does anyone here think Israel will give up if the US pulled it’s funding? So if this war has no solution, why shouldn’t the US look to invest it’s money and time in a problem that does have a solution rather than waste it here? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2784 "2023-12-20T03:47:53Z")
Because Israel is the toehold for the US in the Middle East. If the US pulled all support from Israel they’d be hard pressed to defend themselves for long. The Israeli military is excellent but without outside aid Israel’s enemies would eventually overwhelm them. Especially with Russia aiding them. Which would then give Russia influence over the whole region. Also, the Jewish lobby in the US is pretty strong. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2785 "2023-12-20T03:49:57Z")
This is interesting (28 minutes): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/c5gKaqOrCpk/maxresdefault.jpg "Failure at the Fence (full documentary) | FRONTLINE + @WashingtonPost") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5gKaqOrCpk) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2786 "2023-12-20T03:55:57Z")
Sorry…I meant to add to the above: The video looks at how Hamas breached the defensive wall Israel had in place. It is not political. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2787 "2023-12-20T04:21:19Z")
Thanks - especially good detail on the wall and it’s operation. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2788 "2023-12-20T04:44:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Because Israel is the toehold for the US in the Middle East. If the US pulled all support from Israel they’d be hard pressed to defend themselves for long. The Israeli military is excellent but without outside aid Israel’s enemies would eventually overwhelm them. Especially with Russia aiding them. Which would then give Russia influence over the whole region. To not derail this thread, I’ve replied in the [sister thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/33) about US support for Israel ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2789 "2023-12-20T04:49:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I know is that there’s never been a war in history where the people living in the contested area have been able to go about their lives undisturbed, and shouting about how it’s “illegal” won’t change that. …I was talking specifically about humiliation, beatings and torture. I wasn’t talking about “people living in the contested area have been able to go about their lives undisturbed”. Stomping on people’s head is not “disturbing people in contested areas.” Electric shocks is not "disturbing people in contested areas.” ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2790 "2023-12-20T04:54:06Z")
It sounds like we have some common ground then. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone endorse an “anything goes” / “nothing is out of bounds” response to the attack. Defining those bounds is difficult and honestly, given the wealth of ways that people have developed to kill each other, a whole textbook would be required to delineate exactly what should be out of bounds and what shouldn’t. The summary answer should be “anything above the bare minimum that serves to eliminate Hamas as an organization capable of mounting an organized attack.” No vindictive cruelty, no rape, no punitive executions, no attacks whose sole military objective is terrorizing or killing civilians, no annexation and prevention of civilians from returning to their land after the war ends. The problem is that the IDF, like any other organization, consists of people. People are fallible and can be cruel, and 50% are dumber than average. I have no doubt that some IDF personnel will be committing some or all of the above. What I will judge is how the organization and the state responds. That’s going to be difficult to assess in the near term because in a competent organization incidents need to be investigated, and that takes some amount of time. The other problem is, as has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, Hamas intentionally hides among civilians and uses civilian infrastructure, so all of the criteria above can be adhered to and still result in massive civilian casualties. I don’t have a good solution to this, and I have yet to see anyone propose one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2791 "2023-12-20T05:06:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I was talking specifically about humiliation, beatings and torture. Which has been committed by every single fighting force in every war there ever was. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2792 "2023-12-20T05:15:31Z")
It happens all the time, so it’s fine, right? No need to take a moral position on it: it is what it is. SMDH ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2793 "2023-12-20T05:29:59Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > The other problem is, as has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, Hamas intentionally hides among civilians and uses civilian infrastructure, so all of the criteria above can be adhered to and still result in massive civilian casualties. …this _has_ been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread. But the siege has been ongoing for over 70 days now, and people are starting to die from starvation, infection and disease. These massive civilian casualties won’t be caused because “Hamas intentionally hides among civilians and uses civilian infrastructure.” They are caused because Israel has decided to, in the words of the Human Rights Watch report I cited earlier in the thread, “use starvation as a weapon.” The massive civilian casualties we are seeing in the bombing campaign isn’t because the IDF have been targeting Hamas. Its because: > [@The Guardian](#): > > The latest Israel-Hamas war has provided an unprecedented opportunity for the IDF to use such tools in a much wider theatre of operations and, in particular, to deploy an AI target-creation platform called “the Gospel”, which has significantly accelerated a lethal production line of targets that officials have compared to a “factory”. > > … > > ## From 50 targets a year to 100 a day > > In early November, the IDF said “more than 12,000” targets in Gaza had been identified by its target administration division. > > Describing the unit’s targeting process, an official said: “We work without compromise in defining who and what the enemy is. The operatives of Hamas are not immune – no matter where they hide.” > > … > > Multiple sources familiar with the IDF’s targeting processes confirmed the existence of the Gospel to +972/Local Call, saying it had been used to produce automated recommendations for attacking targets, such as the private homes of individuals suspected of being Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives. > > … > > According to Kochavi, “once this machine was activated” in Israel’s 11-day war with Hamas in May 2021 it generated 100 targets a day. “To put that into perspective, in the past we would produce 50 targets in Gaza per year. Now, this machine produces 100 targets a single day, with 50% of them being attacked.” > > … > > The target division was created to address a chronic problem for the IDF: in earlier operations in Gaza, the air force repeatedly ran out of targets to strike. Since senior Hamas officials disappeared into tunnels at the start of any new offensive, sources said, systems such as the Gospel allowed the IDF to locate and attack a much larger pool of more junior operatives. > > … > > “We’re seeing the widespread flattening of an urban area with heavy explosive weapons, so to claim there’s precision and narrowness of force being exerted is not borne out by the facts.” > **[‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets)** > > Concerns over data-driven ‘factory’ that significantly increases the number of targets for strikes in the Palestinian territory From 50 targets a _year_ to 100 targets a _day_. It in part this that is driving the massive civilian casualties. > [@Smapti](#): > > Which has been committed by every single fighting force in every war there ever was. If you have evidence that US Border Patrol are routinely humiliating, beating and torturing people that are crossing the border, I suggest you report it immediately to the police, and if they don’t listen to you, go to the press. But what you claim “every single fighting force in every war there ever was” has very little relevance to this particular thread. The way that the IDF have chosen to conduct this war is highly relevant. And I’ll continue to bring it up if its relevant to what we are discussing. And what we were discussing was the televised “confession” from the Director of Kamal Adwan, and how we shouldn’t just accept this confession as evidence that Kamal Adwan was actually a secret Hamas base. Especially considering the documented history of how Palestinian prisoners are treated. It doesn’t matter if you think that torture is okay or not. We can’t _trust_ that confession. The evidence shows that Kamal Adwan was a working hospital right up until the raid. And once the IDF took it over, they destroyed essential infrastructure and took it out of action, the very same way they did the same thing to at least 20 other hospitals in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2794 "2023-12-20T05:30:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which has been committed by every single fighting force in every war there ever was. Since Hamas is a fighting force, and they are at war with Israel, and since torture and vile stuff happens in every war ever, even against civilians, what they did on Oct 7 is fine then, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=132) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=134)