# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 134
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2795 "2023-12-20T05:33:11Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > It happens all the time, so it’s fine, right? No need to take a moral position on it: it is what it is. Certainly it is worth pointing out such horrors. But, also, it is not something to only hold against the Israeli army. They are not unique when it comes to a military being awful. Hamas is awful too. The US army does awful things. All militaries do. It sucks but it is not new. Kinda goes with the territory. That certainly does not make it ok at all. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2796 "2023-12-20T05:36:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But, also, it is not something to only hold against the Israeli army. I’m not going to hold it against _only_ the IDF. But I certainly am going to hold it against them. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2797 "2023-12-20T05:37:19Z")
Isn’t there a range of awfulness though? It’s not binary “you either did something awful or you didn’t”. For example what Hamas did on Oct 7 with beheading babies is on the extreme side of awfulness. Doesn’t mean all armies have done things at that extreme end. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2798 "2023-12-20T05:40:21Z")
I do not see how it is worthwhile to try to tally who did more worse things. _“You beheaded babies!”_ _“Yeah, but you captured women and raped them!”_ I wouldn’t know where to start with such a butcher’s bill and I don’t want to. Awful is awful. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2799 "2023-12-20T05:44:17Z")
If that’s the case, why is Hamas bad and “must be stopped” if they’re neither worse nor better than Israel? I can see why Israel wants to protect its citizens, but why should the rest of the world give a crap if they’re both equally vile? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2800 "2023-12-20T05:46:06Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Since Hamas is a fighting force, and they are at war with Israel, and since torture and vile stuff happens in every war ever, even against civilians, what they did on Oct 7 is fine then, right? No, because, as established above, Hamas is evil and its cause is unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2801 "2023-12-20T05:48:52Z")
Good question. I think the current landscape of media is to evoke outrage. Pick a side and shake your fist at the other. What is happening in Israel/Gaza is tragic. I can see both sides. Seems most like picking one side. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2802 "2023-12-20T05:49:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > its cause is unjust How many divisions does justice have? I thought you were above moral judgements and laws of war ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2803 "2023-12-20T06:22:12Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > How many divisions does justice have? None. That’s why Israel needs to fight a war in order to achieve it. > [@Polerius](#): > > I thought you were above moral judgements and laws of war So you’re not disagreeing that Hamas is evil, then? ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2804 "2023-12-20T09:33:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps This will only be a minor hijack, but the Emir Kustarica film “[Underground](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0114787)” features tunnels with trucks driving in tunnels to defend WW11 Belgrade - it’s magical reality comedy, and really good. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2805 "2023-12-20T09:48:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Now you’re raising the same nonsense arguments raised in defense of South Africa’s apartheid and against the boycott Hey, now you are excluding us Zimbabweans. It wasn’t just the South African apartheid regime being complete assholes, we had an official civil war about it. We just never made a word about it like the South Africans did. Both an undeclared war with the Brits, who treated the unilateral decalaration of independence as laughable, and a very real civil war against the majority Blacks, which thankfully us whites lost. South Africa, thank god, never entered full on civil war, it would have been beyond appalling. Zimbabwe/Rhodesia was bad enough. In support of your point, opression of people based on their race, religion, skin colour or any fucking thing is wrong. The Palestinians and the Israelis have an equal right to exist, but not to be completely dickheaded about it, and that is largely on Hamas and the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2806 "2023-12-21T00:57:52Z")
…this post will contain a few links to Twitter, apologies in advance, some of this stuff just can’t be found anywhere else at the moment though. I just read this [Human Rights Watch report](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/most-gazas-population-remains-displaced-and-harms-way), and it included a note that I didn’t believe so I had to go to the primary cite to confirm. > [@](#): > > **Almost half of Gaza’s population is now in Rafah** , which is the small part of Gaza, in the southeast corner. Again, this is leading to nothing but a health crisis. And only one third of the hospitals are working. And even those that are working, of course, are only partially functioning. > **[Humanitarian Coordinator for the Occupied Palestinian Territory Lynn Hastings...](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/humanitarian-coordinator-for-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-lynn-hastings-briefs-the-press-in-geneva/)** > >   December 13, 2023 Virtual press briefing to Geneva-based UN correspondents by the Humanitarian Coordinator for the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN Resident Coordinator and Deputy Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, Ms.... Remember when the south was where everyone was told to go to because it was “safe?” Well half of Gaza is now in Rafah. Driven down to the border. Exactly as Gazans said would happen at the start of the war. And is it safe in Rafah? AJ was filming live as an IDF struck a target next to the hospital. Most of the time we see the bombs from a distance, on shaky cellphone cameras. But this was filmed in broadcast quality, on a tripod, and we can see the _randomness_ and _brutality_ of this bombing campaign in full display here. > _Nowhere_ is safe. In this Twitter post, Abdalhadi Alijla, author of “Rebel Governance in the MENA”, talks about the video footage of his neighbourhood being demolished in a controlled demolition: > [@](#): > > This is where my home is, in the Shujaia neighborhood of Gaza City. Imagine civilian houses hosting more than 100,000 people, mostly children and women, being destroyed from afar( how brave such army is!!!). With laughter and joy, they obliterate a civilian area. > Listen to the cheers. To give you an idea of the scale of destruction this war has caused, here is some cinematic footage from IDF soldiers on the ground. > > Another hospital update: Al-Ahli Arab Hospital. Another one effectively shut-down. > [@Tedros](#): > > Al-Ahli Arab Hospital is a “shell” of its former self due to lack of fuel, staff, supplies – > > [@WHO](https://twitter.com/WHO) > > / > > [@UN](https://twitter.com/UN) > > mission to north [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click) finds. WHO and UN partners undertook another high-risk joint mission today to Al-Ahli Arab and Al-Shifa hospitals in northern Gaza. > > … > > However, colleagues struggled to describe the immense impact recent attacks have had on these health facilities, and the catastrophic conditions remaining patients and health workers face. > > Al-Ahli Hospital has been overwhelmed with patients needing emergency care. In its courtyard, bodies were placed in rows as they couldn’t be given safe and dignified burials. > > Until two days ago, Al-Ahli was northern Gaza’s last hospital functioning where injured people could undergo surgery. But our team learned today that its operating theatres are no long functioning due to the depletion, or complete absence, of specialists, power, fuel, water, food and medical supplies. > > … > > That has left north Gaza with no functional hospital. Only four hospitals operate at a minimum level, providing very limited care. > > About 10 health workers, all doctors and nurses, continue to provide basic first aid, pain management and wound care. 80 injured patients, including older people and small children, are sheltering in a church within the hospital grounds and its orthopedic section. They included a 10-year old girl who lost her leg and had no family left to care for her, and an older man awaiting surgery for a gun wound to the chest he may never get, whose entire family had been killed. > > WHO will keep striving to supply health facilities in northern Gaza. But without medicines and other essential needs, all patients will die slowly and painfully. > Gaza is being flattened. People have been driven south. To the border. Half of the population of Gaza are in a single city. Hospitals shut down one-by-one. And the siege continues. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2807 "2023-12-21T03:44:08Z")
All Hamas needs to do is agree to a cease fire and release hostages. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2808 "2023-12-21T04:12:56Z")
…all Israel has to do is comply with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war and to stop waging a collective war of punishment on the Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. Stop indiscriminate bombing. Stop closing down hospitals. Stop destroying apartment blocks. Stop starving millions of people. Stop abducting people from houses on the West Bank. Stop administrative detention. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2809 "2023-12-21T04:51:33Z")
They’re not indiscriminately bombing. They’ve very specific on their bombing They even warn ahead of time. They’re also not shutting down hospitals. Hospitals are shutting down because Hamas won’t agree to ceasefires and allow supplies in. And when supplies come in Hamas steals it. They’re waging war against Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2810 "2023-12-21T05:04:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All Hamas needs to do is agree to a cease fire and release hostages. You misspelled “surrender”. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2811 "2023-12-21T05:20:46Z")
What do you all think Hamas was thinking when they panned Oct 7? They knew it would provoke a huge response from Israel Did they think - They could defeat Israel if they invaded Gaza? - Other Arab or Muslim nations, seeing Israel’s atrocities, would get involved in the war and help Palestinians defeat them? - Knew that they would get no help and they’d lose the war, but did it to derail the then-ongoing process of normalization of relations between Israel and Arab nations? - Something else? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2812 "2023-12-21T06:08:00Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Other Arab or Muslim nations, seeing Israel’s atrocities, would get involved in the war and help Palestinians defeat them? I’d put my money on that, plus (for some at least) genuine religious fervor and/or hatred, damn the consequences. bin Laden had essentially the same idea in mind with the 9/11 attacks. Not that he necessarily expected Muslim _nations_ to join in his war against the US, but that he expected Muslim _people_ to be provoked into action by the US’s overreaction and, in the near term at least, fight to overthrow their own governments to the extent they were complicit in American hegemony over the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2813 "2023-12-21T06:19:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They’re not indiscriminately bombing. …that isn’t what the last 70 days of bombing suggests. > [@Magiver](#): > > They’ve very specific on their bombing Specially civilian targets? Sure. Government buildings. Churches. Apartment blocks. Refugee camps. Schools. Mosques. > [@Magiver](#): > > They’re also not shutting down hospitals. They’ve shut down over twenty hospitals. > [@Magiver](#): > > Hospitals are shutting down because Hamas won’t agree to ceasefires and allow supplies in. Those hospitals were functional. Hamas was letting supplies get in. Then those hospitals were systematically surrounded by the IDF, supplies were cut off by the IDF, then the hospitals were raided by the IDF, hospital staff arrested by the IDF, then critical infrastructure was destroyed by the IDF, taking them out of action. I’ve provided evidence for all of this in this thread. _These are the facts_. Undeniably. Indisputably. > [@Magiver](#): > > And when supplies come in Hamas steals it. Incorrect. The supplies were getting to the hospitals until the IDF cut the supply chain. > [@Magiver](#): > > They’re waging war against Hamas. They are waging war against the civilian population. They have _barely_ touched Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2814 "2023-12-21T06:28:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …all Israel has to do is comply with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war and to stop waging a collective war of punishment on the Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. Or else what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=133) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=135)