# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 135
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2815 "2023-12-21T06:30:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Or else what? …I was responding to someone else. The context is there in the exchange. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2816 "2023-12-21T10:28:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …all Israel has to do is comply with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war and to stop waging a collective war of punishment on the Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. …to get back to an October 6th situation? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2817 "2023-12-21T10:39:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > …to get back to an October 6th situation? …you mean where the Palestinians were being oppressed, thousands locked up in detention without trial or charge, Gaza was an open air prison with Israel in control of basically everything, in the West Bank Settlers taking land with impunity, round the clock surveillance, search and arrest raids every night, humiliation, beatings and torture at the hands of the IDF? Nobody wants to go back to that. And surely you aren’t suggesting that the only way for Israel to conduct this war is by committing war crimes. That wasn’t what you meant, was it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2818 "2023-12-21T10:59:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And surely you aren’t suggesting that the only way for Israel to conduct this war is by committing war crimes. That wasn’t what you meant, was it? The _only_ way? No, I’m not suggesting it’s the _only_ way. Where, in that post, do you see anything to that effect? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2819 "2023-12-21T11:21:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Where, in that post, do you see anything to that effect? …nothing in your post. But the post you _responded_ to. The one where I simply called on Israel to stop committing war crimes. I don’t think stopping committing war crimes would lead to an October 6th situation. I’m glad to see that you don’t think that way either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2820 "2023-12-21T11:28:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The one where I simply called on Israel to stop committing war crimes. I don’t think stopping committing war crimes would lead to an October 6th situation. I’m glad to see that you don’t think that way either. Again: where, in my post, are you getting this from? After I say _nothing_ about whether it’s the only way to conduct this war, you ask a non sequitur question — and then, after I say that it’s not the _only_ way to conduct this war, you make a non sequitur conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2821 "2023-12-21T11:30:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Again: where, in my post, are you getting this from? …I’ve _answered_ this question. I’m not sure more clarification will help. All I did was ask you a question and you answered it. There isn’t anything else I can add here except thanks for the response. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2822 "2023-12-21T12:05:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not sure more clarification will help. I’m not sure either; but, in hopes of adding more clarification: you say “I’m glad to see that you don’t think that way either.” Let me now clarify: _I didn’t make that claim._ Your statement that I don’t think that way is, again, a _non sequitur._ I also didn’t make the “only way” claim, but don’t mistake that one for this one; I’m talking, here and now, about this _other_ claim that you’ve for some reason attributed to me: this “you don’t think that way either” claim. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2823 "2023-12-21T12:10:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let me now clarify: _I didn’t make that claim._ …all you said was “…to get back to an October 6th situation?” I didn’t know what you meant by this. I asked for clarification. You gave clarification. I thanked you for clarifying. Is there anything else you need from me? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2824 "2023-12-21T14:02:05Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > What do you all think Hamas was thinking when they panned Oct 7? They knew it would provoke a huge response from Israel > > Did they think > > - They could defeat Israel if they invaded Gaza? > - Other Arab or Muslim nations, seeing Israel’s atrocities, would get involved in the war and help Palestinians defeat them? > - Knew that they would get no help and they’d lose the war, but did it to derail the then-ongoing process of normalization of relations between Israel and Arab nations? > - Something else? Mainly the third one, but perhaps with an outside chance at the second, also figuring they could strike a blow at Israel and blunt Israel’s response with a UN call for ceasefire, which on prior occasions has worked to stop Israeli military action short of really degrading them. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2825 "2023-12-21T14:11:44Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Something else? For the same reason they constantly fire ineffective rockets in to Israel. An act of defiance against an overwhelming oppressor. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2826 "2023-12-21T14:28:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They have _barely_ touched Hamas. That’s demonstrably not true. @Babale above listed significant portions of both Hamas infrastructure and personnel captured or destroyed by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2827 "2023-12-21T14:53:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s demonstrably not true. @Babale above listed significant portions of both Hamas infrastructure and personnel captured or destroyed by Israel. …I’ve addressed that in this thread. The biggest problem is that the IDF _lie all of the time_. They siad Al Shifa was on top of a “command and control” bunker. It wasn’t. They are claiming Kamal Adwan was a “military facility under Hamas’s control” but it was obviously a working hospital until it was taken over by the IDF, no physical evidence of this was produced, and the only evidence they presented was what was likely a forced televised confession. The claim that “800 tunnels” have been destroyed is unverified. And they don’t even know how many Hamas soldiers they have killed. Every time they bomb a refugee camp they say that they have hit Hamas. Every time they bomb a UN shelter they say the have hit Hamas. Every time they bomb a school they say they have hit Hamas. Every time they’ve taken over a hospital, they claim they have taken over a Hamas stronghold. But what we see on the ground, both from footage from sruvivors, from independent observers from NGO’s and humanitarian agencies, is that the IDF claims don’t add up. What we do know is the toll that they have taken on the civilian population. Nearly 2 million people out of 2.3 million people have been displaced. According to the UN, half of them are in Rafah. Its estimated that 60% of Gaza’s infrastructure has been destroyed. 20,000 people dead from the bombing campaign, over half of that women and children. Many more thousands still buried in the rubble. After over 70 days of siege 50% of the population are starving, and we are hearing more and more reports of people dying from starvation, infection and disease. These tactics and the strategy hasn’t targeted Hamas. Its targeted infrastructure, its targeted the civilian population. Its forced millions of people to the sotuth, to the border. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2828 "2023-12-21T15:05:56Z")
I imagine they target hamas hiding in shelters, schools and hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2829 "2023-12-21T15:11:27Z")
…it is very apparent that the IDF have a healthy imagination. But imagination isn’t enough to make shelters, schools and hospitals legitimate targets. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2830 "2023-12-21T15:13:06Z")
So, in summary, anything the IDF says is either suspect or to be discounted entirely, while everything that these other organizations say is credible. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2831 "2023-12-21T15:20:19Z")
…you can weigh the evidence up for yourself. Its all in the public domain. The United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, you can read the reports. You can evaluate the IDF claims. You can look at what they have presented. Because I’ve done that. And at the start of the war I actually gave them the benefit of the doubt. But not any more. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2832 "2023-12-21T15:31:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > So, in summary, anything the IDF says is either suspect or to be discounted entirely, while everything that these other organizations say is credible. Well no, but you have to take into account that the IDF is currently the Israeli propaganda ministry. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2833 "2023-12-21T15:32:44Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > So, in summary, anything the IDF says is either suspect or to be discounted entirely, while everything that these other organizations say is credible. Although the IDF has, in the past, been caught shamelessly spinning blatant pork pies, and I barely even need to add Hamas, the typical problem with all of these organizations is that what they say seldom has the relation to the truth and integrity that even lies do. Unless (difficult in a war zone, esp one where journalists merely represent a fun variety of target) you have 2 or 3 independent journalists investigating the tunnel or whatever it is, your best bet is simply to ignore anything coming out of military or terrorist press offices, whether they are telling you the sky is blue or that pigs fly. Certainly do not make crucial decisions or form opinions based on it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2834 "2023-12-21T15:46:20Z")
And Gaza’s Government Media Office is the hamas propaganda ministry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=134) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=136)