# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 136
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2835 "2023-12-21T16:03:47Z")
Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2836 "2023-12-21T17:23:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Incorrect. The supplies were getting to the hospitals until the IDF cut the supply chain. The supplies were getting in before the war under normal commerce. That changed with the war. The supply chain is now war dependent and that is Hamas’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2837 "2023-12-21T17:53:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, you can read the reports. Do those reports actually say that Israel did NOT capture of kill military leaders and/or dismantle military infrastructure? Or are they simply detailing humanitarian crises and advocating for ceasefire? I have read a few of the articles on the Gaza situation on the web sites of HRW and AI. HRW does not seem to contradict the IDF’s claims at all. AI says they investigated certain specific strikes by the IDF and disagree with their military necessity, but that still doesn’t contradict the claims that @Babale mentioned in his post. The UN I don’t even bother with. The credibility of their agencies regarding anything Israel-related is absolute zero. AI’s and HRW’s is also in question, but I’m more open-minded about them as a source of contrary information. But the claims about commanders and militants eliminated or tunnels destroyed are not disputed by these sources. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2838 "2023-12-21T22:34:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The supplies were getting in before the war under normal commerce. That changed with the war. The supply chain is now war dependent and that is Hamas’s doing. …the supplies were getting through _during_ the war. The hospitals were operating until the IDF laid siege on each hospital. This is undisputed. The IDF shut all of these hospitals down. I’ve documented this throughout the thread. All of the evidence has been provided. Feel free to name a hospital and I’ll walk you through the process on how it was taken down. If you have any evidence to support your assertions, please feel free to post it in this thread. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Do those reports actually say that Israel did NOT capture of kill military leaders and/or dismantle military infrastructure? The post I addressed claimed only six Battalion commanders had been killed. _Six_. Out of 20,000 dead people, most of them women and children, only _six_ of them were mid-level leadership. No senior leadership. Was that the number you were referring too? The infrastructure in that post claimed 800 tunnel shafts were identified and 500 destroyed. Some of the “tunnel shafts” that the IDF presented in propaganda videos were identified as normal things when analysed. An example here: > **[Investigation disproves Israel claim of Hamas tunnel under Gaza hospital](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/8/investigation-disproves-israel-claim-of-hamas-tunnel-under-gaza-hospital)** > > The hatch Israel claimed was a Hamas tunnel is only a water reservoir for the hospital How many of the other “tunnels” were really Hamas tunnels, or were they water reservoirs or building elevator shafts or a septic tank? The other claim is that hospitals were military bases because allegedly in past wars they had been used to “wage war against Israel.” That isn’t good enough to make them legitimate targets in _this_ war. And why would Hamas be using hospitals as bases in the first place? The only reason to (and the reason given during the “confession”) is because they thought Israel _wouldn’t_ target hospitals. But it became apparent from the very early days of the war that Israel had zero problems targeting hospitals, and the pattern of shooting and bombing hospitals, putting hospitals under siege, taking them over and arresting and kicking people out of the hospitals was hardly a secret. So what military and strategic advantage was there to having bases in hospitals? We can see that at the very least at the time each hospital was put under siege Hamas were _not_ using those hospitals as bases. Because apart from a handful of weapons that could have been staged, and a televised confession, the evidence of these “bases” has been severely lacking. Here’s a quick question. I mentioned that 100 people were killed by a strike at Jabalia refugee camp a few days ago, and 90 people a few days before that. How many of those people killed were confirmed as Hamas fighters? What was the target? Because every public statement from IDF spokespeople have made it clear that they aren’t tracking these numbers. That this isn’t a metric that is important to them. This was the cite quoted up thread: [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html) They used a _ratio_. A ratio he described as “tremendous, tremendously positive, and perhaps unique in the world.” Does that sound accurate to you? If you can find better numbers, either for people or infrastructure, feel free to link to it here. But the infrastructure targeted includes everything from bakeries to water reservoirs. _Civilian_ infrastructure. It’s been very deliberate. Calculated. > [@cmkeller](#): > > The UN I don’t even bother with. You don’t have to bother with them. But has there been any information that I’ve cited from UN agencies that you consider to be outright lies or misinformation? Please feel free to link to anything I’ve cited and show me that they are lies or propaganda equivalent to anything the IDF have produced. > [@cmkeller](#): > > But the claims about commanders and militants eliminated or tunnels destroyed are not disputed by these sources. The other sources, as well as the UN, outline the scale of destruction and the humanitarian cost of the war Israel has waged. Crops razed. Cemeteries destroyed. Centuries-old churches and Mosques destroyed. Records and archives destroyed. Neighbourhoods flattened. People left to die because there is no longer a functional healthcare system, no ambulances to pick them up, no hospital to take them to. And we can compare that to claims about commanders and militants eliminated or tunnels destroyed and we have maybe six mid-level commanders killed, a guess based on vibes on how many militants have been killed, wild unconfirmed claims about tunnels. And if we accept those IDF claims are true: then the scale of death and destruction in Gaza break all of the rules on proportionality. You can’t tell me that all of this was worth it to take out a handful of mid-level commanders and a bunch ot tunnels. This was supposed to be a war on Hamas. It wasn’t supposed to be a war on tunnels. The latest update from the war: The death toll is now over 20,000 people, although I suspect it is becoming increasingly difficult to keep these numbers accurate as systems and access fall apart. From Tedros: > [@](#): > > I have lost count of the number of times when I thought the crisis in [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click) could not get more horrific. But it has happened again. The fact we are talking about 20,000 people killed, mostly children and women, and with over 52,000 (and counting) afflicted by life-threatening and -altering injuries, in nearly 3 months is both horrific, and, above all, a travesty for humanity. The horrors are endless for those trapped in what has become a Hell on earth. We are witnessing: •⁠ ⁠⁠on average around 300 deaths a day while hostilities have raged •⁠ ⁠⁠a devastated health system with only 9 of Gaza’s 36 hospitals partially functioning; with none functioning in the north •⁠ ⁠⁠children orphaned after parents have been slain •⁠ ⁠⁠disease, hunger and lack of clean water and sanitation posing further risks beyond the bombs and bullets •⁠ ⁠a constantly perilous and restricted humanitarian space in which to deliver life-saving medical supplies in •⁠ ⁠⁠mental health trauma that will haunt many for years. > The latest flash update: > [@](#): > > - On 20 December at about 9:30, the main telecommunication provider in Gaza announced that all telecommunications services had shut down due to cuts in the main fibre routes in Khan Younis. This followed the longest shutdown across the Strip between 14 and 18 December, and a partial resumption at about ten per cent capacity in southern Gaza. Humanitarian agencies and first responders have warned that telecommunications blackouts jeopardize the already constrained provision of life-saving assistance. As a result, this Flash Update provides limited updated information about the humanitarian situation in Gaza over the past 24 hours. > > … > > - On 19 December, at about 17:37, a five-storey building was reportedly struck in Ar Remal neighbourhood in Gaza city, resulting in damage to the building. Reportedly, more than 100 people were killed and another 16 people injured. Additional 50 people are reported missing under the rubble. > > … > > The latest reported figures as of 19 December afternoon stood at 19,667 Palestinians who have been killed in Gaza. About 70 per cent of those killed are said to be women and children. As of then, about 52,586 people have been injured, according to the MoH. Many other people are missing, presumably buried under the rubble, waiting for rescue or recovery. > > … > > - On 20 December, the UN Human Rights Office issued a [statement](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city?_gl=1*1dg4swg*_ga*MTk0NTYyOTI2NC4xNjk1OTI1NjI4*_ga_E60ZNX2F68*MTcwMzExNDcwMi4zNS4wLjE3MDMxMTQ3MDIuNjAuMC4w) on reports of an incident on 19 December between 20:00 and 23:00, whereby Israeli forces reportedly shot and killed at least 11 Palestinian men, and allegedly injured an unconfirmed number of women and children in the Al Awda residential building, also known as the “Annan building,” in Ar Remal neighbourhood, Gaza city. Three related families were sheltering inside this building during the incidents. Initial witness reports circulating through media allege that the men were separated from women and children and were then shot and killed in what may amount to a war crime. The details of this incident are yet to be verified. > > … > > - On 20 December, in the early morning hours, Israeli forces reportedly destroyed 56 buildings in the suburb of Ash Shuja’iyeh, eastern Gaza city. Casualty numbers are unavailable as of the time of reporting. > > … > > - On 19 December, at about 16:50, an Israeli military drone (quadcopter) reportedly opened fire inside Al Hanawi School, western Khan Yunis, southern Gaza, injuring four IDPs. It is not clear how many IDPs were sheltering at the school at the time of the attack. This is the second such incident of casualties from drones’ strikes on schools in western Khan Yunis, following the killing of a girl on 14 December. > > … > > More than 360,000 cases of infectious diseases, including acute respiratory infections, meningitis, jaundice, impetigo, and chickenpox, have been recorded in UNRWA shelters. More at the link. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #74 \[EN/AR/HE\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-74-enarhe)** > > Situation Report in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Education and more; published on 20 Dec 2023 by OCHA From the AP: > [@](#): > > More than half a million people in Gaza — a quarter of the population — are starving, according to a report Thursday by the U.N. and other agencies that highlights the humanitarian crisis caused by [Israel’s bombardment](https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war) and siege on the territory in response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack. > > The extent of the population’s hunger eclipsed even the near-famines in Afghanistan and Yemen of recent years, according to figures in the report. The report warned that the risk of famine is “increasing each day,” blaming the hunger on [insufficient aid entering Gaza](https://apnews.com/article/cyprus-israel-gaza-humanitarian-aid-maritime-corridor-28ab035dcaa18413ddfa36929dd1b457). > > “It doesn’t get any worse,’’ said Arif Husain, chief economist for the U.N.’s World Food Program. “I have never seen something at the scale that is happening in Gaza. And at this speed.” > > … > > The war has also pushed Gaza’s health sector into collapse. Only nine of its 36 health facilities are still partially functioning, all located in the south, according to the World Health Organization. WHO relief workers on Thursday reported “unbearable” scenes in two hospitals they visited in northern Gaza: Bedridden patients with untreated wounds cry out for water, the few remaining doctors and nurses have no supplies, and bodies are lined up in the courtyard. > > … > > This week, Israel began allowing aid to enter Gaza through its Kerem Shalom crossing, which boosted the number of trucks entering from around 100 a day to around 190 on Wednesday, according to the U.N. But an Israeli strike Thursday morning hit the Palestinian side of the crossing, forcing the U.N. to stop its pickups of aid there, according to Juliette Touma, spokesperson of UNRWA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees. At least four staff members at the crossing were killed, a nearby hospital reported. The Israeli military said it struck militants in the area. > **[UN says more than 1 in 4 people in Gaza are starving because of war](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-21-2023-7d9718b32bf0d308c44c7c9e3c4e0deb?taid=65846a0339b70f0001676d76&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter)** > > A report from the U.N. finds that more than half a million people in Gaza are starving because of not enough food entering the territory since the outbreak of war more than 10 weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2839 "2023-12-22T03:21:15Z")
…the Washington Post has just published an investigation into Al Shifa Hospital. I can’t read it as its paywalled, but if you are subscribed the link to it is here: > **[The case of al-Shifa: Investigating the assault on Gaza’s largest hospital](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/)** > > The evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, a Post analysis shows. The article is summarised here in Rolling Stone which, for some, may also require signing up: > **[Israeli Evidence of Hamas Command Center in al-Shifa Hospital Falls Short:...](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israeli-hamas-command-center-al-shifa-hospital-falls-report-1234934784/)** > > A Washington Post investigation found no proof of a Hamas command center under al-Shifa Hospital following Israel’s attack on the medical complex.  > [@Rolling Stone](#): > > LAST MONTH, THE world watched as a spectacle rarely seen in modern warfare unfolded in [Gaza](https://www.rollingstone.com/t/gaza/). The Israeli military [tore through al-Shifa Hospital](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/israel-hospital-airstrikes-gaza-doctors-dire-situations-1234910503/), the Gaza Strip’s main hospital, forcing the evacuation of patients and refugees as part of a siege on the medical complex that resulted in dozens of patient deaths and an untold number of additional casualties. > > … > > Following the siege on al-Shifa, the Israeli government attempted to convince the world that the hospital held both the literal and figurative smoking guns which would prove its alleged connections to Hamas military operations. To justify such a brutal attack, one would expect there to have been clear, irrefutable evidence of Hamas’ presence and use of the complex, but aside from a handful of weapons and some paraphernalia, the findings have [been lackluster](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-shifa-hospitals-a017ba154c816c8d565393917dadd9ee). An analysis [by _The Washington Post_](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAzMTM0ODAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzA0NTE3MTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDMxMzQ4MDAsImp0aSI6IjY3OWNlZjUyLTQ4YzctNGIxOC1iMWJjLTZjZjgwNmRlYjQxOCIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS93b3JsZC8yMDIzLzEyLzIxL2FsLXNoaWZhLWhvc3BpdGFsLWdhemEtaGFtYXMtaXNyYWVsLyJ9.HpNvv2OuSv3zQg51mFyvbZ_-vydK9uCnBBFlZyoDLE0) of open-source materials and evidence provided by Israel in the aftermath of the attack found very little proof that the tunnels under al-Shifa led to a major Hamas command center. > > … > > Analysis by the _Post_ of tunnel footage, as well as maps and other materials released by the IDF, contradicted claims by Israel that several hospital buildings were connected to and could be accessed from within the tunnel network. The analysis also found that several small rooms attached to the tunnel, one of which the IDF had described as an evacuated Hamas “operational room,” contained no signs of recent use or occupancy. > > A separate November analysis of IDF footage by CNN found that Israeli forces may have [moved or rearranged weapons](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/middleeast/israel-al-shifa-gaza-what-we-know-intl/index.html) within al-Shifa Hospital before providing international news organizations access to the scene, prompting questions regarding the authenticity of the already limited findings provided by IDF forces. A reminder: Al Shifa was the hospital that Israel made the _strongest_ case that this was a Hamas base. They have alleged that other hospitals were _also_ Hamas bases, but the evidence that those hospitals were Hamas bases were substantially less than what they produced for Al Shifa. The only “real” evidence that any hospital were bases was the televised “confession” by the director of Kamal Adwan. But there isn’t even any physical evidence that _supports_ that confession. I think we can put the “hospitals were Hamas bases” to rest now. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2840 "2023-12-22T03:26:44Z")
…sorry for the multiple posts: but I just saw this: > [@](#): > > A Sky News visual investigation shows a building in Deir al Balah was hit one day after civilians were told they could flee to the city. Israel says it struck military targets in the area that day. The UN told Sky News that such strikes had “no rationale”. > > … > > The Musabeh family’s home had been destroyed. > > “The scene was horrific, fires burning in the house,” eyewitness Mohammed Abu Musabeh told Erem News, a UAE-based news organisation. > > Among the survivors was an infant girl, Layan, a relative of Mr Abu Musabeh, who said she was blown onto a neighbour’s roof by the force of the explosion. > > … > > In preparation for an invasion of southern Gaza, Israel published an interactive map which divided the territory into hundreds of small zones. > > The map, Israel said, would be used to give clear and precise evacuation orders to try to keep civilians in the densely populated Gaza Strip away from active combat zones. > > Using on-the-ground footage, satellite imagery and mapping software, a Sky News visual investigation found that Israel’s evacuation orders have instead been chaotic and contradictory and that a neighbourhood in Deir al Balah was hit one day after the IDF said evacuees could flee there. > > A spokesperson for the IDF said: “The IDF will act against Hamas wherever it operates, with full commitment to international law, while distinguishing between terrorists and civilians, and taking all feasible precautions to minimise harm to civilians.” > > In response to our investigation, the United Nations told Sky News that it is already investigating 52 similar incidents in areas where the Israeli army told civilians it was safe to evacuate to. > > “This is exactly why we as the UN have been saying that there is no safe place in Gaza,” Ajith Sunghay, head of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, told Sky News. > **[Israel said Gazans could flee to this neighbourhood - then it was hit](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-said-gazans-could-flee-to-this-neighbourhood-then-it-was-hit-13034936)** > > A Sky News visual investigation shows a building in Deir al Balah was hit one day after civilians were told they could flee to the city. Israel says it struck military targets in the area that day. The UN told Sky News that such strikes had "no... More at the link, including interactive graphics. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2841 "2023-12-22T04:07:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the Washington Post has just published an investigation into Al Shifa Hospital. I can’t read it as its paywalled, but if you are subscribed the link to it is here Here is a gift link > **[The case of al-Shifa: Investigating the assault on Gaza’s largest hospital](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAzMTM0ODAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzA0NTE3MTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDMxMzQ4MDAsImp0aSI6IjY3OWNlZjUyLTQ4YzctNGIxOC1iMWJjLTZjZjgwNmRlYjQxOCIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS93b3JsZC8yMDIzLzEyLzIxL2FsLXNoaWZhLWhvc3BpdGFsLWdhemEtaGFtYXMtaXNyYWVsLyJ9.HpNvv2OuSv3zQg51mFyvbZ_-vydK9uCnBBFlZyoDLE0&itid=gfta)** > > The evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, a Post analysis shows. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2842 "2023-12-22T04:25:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Here is a gift link …thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2843 "2023-12-22T15:50:57Z")
> **[A Times Investigation Tracked Israel’s Use of One of Its Most Destructive...](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html?unlocked_article_code=1.H00.Dfw1.o86H6BXLgYjE&smid=url-share)** > > A Times visual investigation reveals that one of Israel’s largest munitions was regularly being dropped in areas designated safe for i > During the first six weeks of the war in Gaza, Israel routinely used one of its biggest and most destructive bombs in areas it designated safe for civilians, according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times. > > The [video investigation](https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html) focuses on the use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area of southern Gaza where Israel had ordered civilians to move for safety. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2844 "2023-12-22T16:40:23Z")
Thanks for the link. Demonstrates that the IDF had a plan in place to depopulate Gaza. I believe I saw in the Washington Post this AM, that there are groups in Israel already proposing that they move back into their Gaza settlements based on a right of return. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2845 "2023-12-22T16:53:45Z")
I saw an interview back late October, with a settler, who looked forward to moving back to Gaza when the Palestinians was out. It was so much nicer than the West Bank. Here it is. It’s in Danish, but Google translate will help, and the videos are in English. > **[Israelske bosættere vil tilbage til Gaza, når krigen slutter: 'Det var et...](https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/udland/israelske-bosaettere-vil-tilbage-til-gaza-naar-krigen-slutter-det-var-et-smukt-liv)** > > Anita Tucker vil tilbage til det sted, hun kalder hjem. Der er ikke plads til en palæstinensisk stat, mener hun. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2846 "2023-12-23T02:40:11Z")
…from Paula Gaviria Betancur, Special Rapporteur on the human rights of internally displaced persons, published by the United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner: > [@](#): > > Israel is seeking to permanently alter the composition of Gaza’s population with ever-expanding evacuation orders and widespread and systematic attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure in southern areas of the besieged enclave, a UN expert warned today. > > … > > “Israel has reneged on promises of safety made to those who complied with its order to evacuate northern Gaza two months ago. Now, they have been forcibly displaced again, alongside the population of southern Gaza,” > > … > > “As evacuation orders and military operations continue to expand and civilians are subjected to relentless attacks on a daily basis, the only logical conclusion is that Israel’s military operation in Gaza aims to deport the majority of the civilian population _en masse_,” the Special Rapporteur said. > > “Gaza’s housing and civilian infrastructure have been razed to the ground, frustrating any realistic prospects for displaced Gazans to return home, repeating a [long history of mass forced displacement](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls) of Palestinians by Israel,” she said. > > … > > “The principles of proportionality and distinction between civilians and combatants have been completely disregarded. Hospitals, schools, and shelters have been deliberately targeted without credible evidence that they are military objectives, or attacked without precautions to minimise incidental loss of life or injury to civilians,” the Special Rapporteur said. > > “Civilians in areas under evacuation order, as well as in so-called “safe zones”, unilaterally designated by Israeli forces against international humanitarian law, have been the target of indiscriminate attacks which have killed nearly 19,000 Palestinians and injured over 51,000,” the UN expert said. > > “Many others have said it before – but it cannot be said enough – there is no safe place in Gaza,” Gaviria Betancur said. > > … > > The Special Rapporteur recalled that under international law, individuals that do not comply with evacuation orders do not lose their right to protection. Israel has failed to honour its obligations under international law to ensure displacement does not violate the rights to life, dignity, liberty and security of those affected, and ensure IDPs enjoy an adequate standard of living and access to humanitarian assistance, Gaviria Betancur said. > > “Israel’s illegal blockade and stranglehold on the entry of humanitarian aid have left IDPs living in appalling conditions,” she said. “The much-needed re-opening of the Kerem Shalom border crossing will barely make a dent in the needs on the ground if more aid is not allowed in. The Secretary-General has [warned](https://www.un.org/en/situation-in-occupied-palestine-and-israel/sg-sc-article99-06-dec-2023) that the humanitarian system in Gaza is at severe risk of collapse.” > > Gaviria Betancur reiterated [her concerns](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/israel-must-rescind-evacuation-order-northern-gaza-and-comply-international) that Israel’s actions amount to the war crimes of collective punishment and forcible transfer. More at the link. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/israel-working-expel-civilian-population-gaza-un-expert-warns](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/israel-working-expel-civilian-population-gaza-un-expert-warns) Many people argued at the start of the thread that “forcible transfer” wasn’t the end goal here. I wonder if any of them, considering the tactics and strategies deployed since the resumption of hostilities, has made them reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2847 "2023-12-23T18:22:37Z")
It’s been obvious from the beginning that the Israeli goal is to herd all Gazans into concentration camps on the southern border and then push for deportation as the most humane solution to the miserable plight of the refugees. Good plan, but it’s not working. The IDF has failed to depopulate the north. Now citizens, finding the south worse than Gaza City, have [returned](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67194485https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67194485) home. All the IDF has done is murder 1% of the population and create chaos. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2848 "2023-12-23T18:44:42Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > It’s been obvious from the beginning that the Israeli goal is to herd all Gazans into concentration camps on the southern border and then push for deportation as the most humane solution to the miserable plight of the refugees. What on Earth are you talking about? Obvious to whom, conspiracy theory aficionados? That was _never_ the IDF’s plan, and as you point out correctly, it is not what is happening on the ground. Never before have I seen anyone say “They said they don’t want to do X, then X did not happen; clearly this is evidence that they tried and failed to do X”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2849 "2023-12-23T19:23:40Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > It’s been obvious from the beginning that the Israeli goal is to herd all Gazans into concentration camps on the southern border and then push for deportation as the most humane solution to the miserable plight of the refugees. It’s not obvious at all. If you want to throw conspiracy theory around start with Hamas. Their long term goal has always been the destruction of Israel. There was no clearly achievable victory with their attack. It appears they’re trying to draw Islamic countries into a regional war.and there’s not a hint of concern for their own people. It has generated a state of war in the Red Sea which endangers all the Mediterranean traffic through the Suez Canal. It has generated Hamas attempted attacks in Europe. This is what happens when you vote in a terrorist group with the intent to destroy your neighbor. It’s sad that Gaza is the battle ground for Hamas but their war machine made Gaza’s infrastructure their base of operation. Hamas needs to be defeated. It’s being backed by a regime that routinely calls for the destruction of the US and they are in the process of gaining a nuclear weapon. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2850 "2023-12-23T20:08:51Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > It’s been obvious from the beginning that the Israeli goal is to herd all Gazans into concentration camps on the southern border and then push for deportation as the most humane solution to the miserable plight of the refugees I’m pretty upset with the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, but… No, that has never been obvious. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2851 "2023-12-23T20:08:53Z")
Actually I agree with @Crane . It seems obvious that the IDF definition of “destroy Hamas” equals “destroy everyone in Gaza,” i.e. kill or expel everyone who lives there. Everywhere the IDF told people to go has been bombed and people are starving, have no medical care, etc. And I’m sure Israel has no intention of rebuilding everything they destroyed so that whoever might remain can return to some kind of home. Israel is going to put the burden on the international community. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2852 "2023-12-23T20:16:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No, that has never been obvious. It should have been. [Israel](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrEta09P4dlKIozD5hXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzYEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1703391166/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.haaretz.com%2fisrael-news%2f2023-11-14%2fty-article%2fisraeli-mks-publish-plan-to-transfer-gazans-to-europe-to-alleviate-humanitarian-crisis%2f0000018b-ce7c-d168-a3ef-dffeed320000/RK=2/RS=Uzh_kWs0_fRJiY.gYyprsmZR65c-) has been promoting it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2853 "2023-12-23T20:38:58Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > It seems obvious that the IDF definition of “destroy Hamas” equals “destroy everyone in Gaza,” i.e. kill or expel everyone who lives there. I think you need to recalibrate your obviousometer. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2854 "2023-12-23T20:44:13Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > Everywhere the IDF told people to go has been bombed Why it’s almost as if the terrorist faction with no regard for human life was using them as human shields or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=135) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=137)