# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 139
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2895 "2023-12-28T02:40:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and this has _nothing_ to do with the hospitals. It was never a PR campaign to get everyone to believe that the hospitals were bases. They simply _weren’t_ bases. They were _hospitals_. There has been a sustained propaganda campaign by Israel to make everyone _believe_ that hospitals were bases. It was effective. It worked _spectacularly_. It gave them cover to take over 20 hospitals out of action and now, when people have started to question it…its too late to do anything about it. This is just laughable, or it would be if it wasn’t so scarily familiar. The Evil Jews, plotting for years to set Hamas up just biding for the day that they could trick poor, innocent Hamas into giving them an opening to attack and destroy all the hospitals for nefarious Jewish reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2896 "2023-12-28T02:49:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And Israel wants to bomb all these hospitals that aren’t being used by Hamas because…? …Israel didn’t just bomb the hospitals. I don’t know why I need to remind you of this, but they surrounded the hospitals, put them under siege, cut off power, food, water, fuel, then they raided the hospitals, arrested some of the hospital staff, expelled much of the rest including staff, patients, and thousands of people using the hospitals as shelter. Then they destroyed essential infrastructure at each of the hospitals, making it almost impossible to bring them back into operation. The did this with at least 20 hospitals. With some of the hospitals in the north, they reduced them to rubble. And why have they done this? I’ll quote again what Paula Gaviria Betancur, Special Rapporteur on the human rights of internally displaced persons, said before Christmas: > [@](#): > > “Israel has reneged on promises of safety made to those who complied with its order to evacuate northern Gaza two months ago. Now, they have been forcibly displaced again, alongside the population of southern Gaza,” > > … > > “As evacuation orders and military operations continue to expand and civilians are subjected to relentless attacks on a daily basis, the only logical conclusion is that Israel’s military operation in Gaza aims to deport the majority of the civilian population _en masse_,” the Special Rapporteur said. > > “Gaza’s housing and civilian infrastructure have been razed to the ground, frustrating any realistic prospects for displaced Gazans to return home, repeating a [long history of mass forced displacement](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls) of Palestinians by Israel,” she said. > > … > > “The principles of proportionality and distinction between civilians and combatants have been completely disregarded. Hospitals, schools, and shelters have been deliberately targeted without credible evidence that they are military objectives, or attacked without precautions to minimise incidental loss of life or injury to civilians,” the Special Rapporteur said. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/israel-working-expel-civilian-population-gaza-un-expert-warns](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/israel-working-expel-civilian-population-gaza-un-expert-warns) What she argues fits in with the tactics and strategy we see on the ground. Much of the north now flattened. No functional hospitals in the north. The IDF now planning on doing the same to central Gaza. Driving people even further south. Over half of displaced people have been driven to Rafah. If the target was simply taking out Hamas (pretending for a minute they actually were in the hospitals, when they were not) , they would have left the hospitals operational once they took them out. But they didn’t do that. They took them out of action. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > To do what, exactly? Israel is a sovereign nation in the midst of a war for its existence. Yes, i think they have committed war crimes. Palestinians have been in a war for their existence since 1948. And those war crimes by Israel _matter_ here. They are starving people. 80 days of siege. Systematically dismantling the healthcare system. Forcibly displacing 1.9 million out of 2.3 million people. Destroying their homes so they’ve got nothing to go back to. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > - who is in a position to stop them? The United States. They’ve enabled this, both with funding, rhetoric, and providing the weapons. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > i don’t actually think the goal of Israel is genocide. I think they see that as an unfortunate means to an end, which is to destroy Hamas. The goal, as elaborated by Paula Gaviria Betancur, is to " to deport the majority of the civilian population _en masse_." Its the only strategy that makes sense here. It matches what many in Israel’s leadership have said on the record. It matches what has happened in the north, it matches the fact that half of all displaced people have headed to Rafah. They’ve been _herded_ there. They aren’t targeting Hamas. They don’t even know how many they’ve killed. They _have_ targeted civilian infrastructure. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > i think Israelis, including Israeli intelligence, believed there were military targets in the hospitals. Any Israelis that believed there were military targets in the hospitals were wrong. And Israeli intelligence _manufactured_ the case that hospitals were Hamas bases. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2897 "2023-12-28T02:50:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The goal, as elaborated by Paula Gaviria Betancur, is to " to deport the majority of the civilian population _en masse_." Its the only strategy that makes sense here So when the war ends _without_ all the Palestinians being deported or Gaza being annexed, you will apologize for accusing Israel of genocide based on Hamas propaganda by…? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2898 "2023-12-28T03:01:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “As evacuation orders and military operations continue to expand and civilians are subjected to relentless attacks on a daily basis, the only logical conclusion is that Israel’s military operation in Gaza aims to deport the majority of the civilian population _en masse_,” the Special Rapporteur said. Bullshit. The UN is not an unbiased observer to this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2899 "2023-12-28T03:02:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So when the war ends _without_ all the Palestinians being deported or Gaza being annexed, you will apologize for accusing Israel of genocide based on Hamas propaganda by…? …apologise for what? Isreal is _starving_ Gaza. You can’t deny that, can you? 80 days of siege. Only a few weeks away from _famine_. What is the strategic goal of the siege? What was the strategic goal of shutting down 20 hospitals? What is the strategic goal of forcing 1.9 million people out of their homes, forcing half of them to try and find shelter in Rafah? > [@Smapti](#): > > Bullshit. You are entitled to your opinion. I think the Special Rapporteur has made a good case, supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2900 "2023-12-28T03:03:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What is the strategic goal of the siege? What was the strategic goal of shutting down 20 hospitals? What is the strategic goal of forcing 1.9 million people out of their homes, forcing half of them to try and find shelter in Rafah? To defeat Hamas, to defeat Hamas, and to defeat Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2901 "2023-12-28T03:04:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think the Special Rapporteur has made a good case, supported by the evidence. The Special Rapporteur is either ignorant or corrupt. Possibly both. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2902 "2023-12-28T03:07:03Z")
Bleh. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2903 "2023-12-28T03:08:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To defeat Hamas, to defeat Hamas, and to defeat Hamas. …this is a strategy that will come with the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. The bombings have already claimed over 20,000 lives. UN estimates that the same number again is buried under the rubble. They estimate that even more will die from famine, infection and disease. And you can’t even tell me how many Hamas people have been killed. > [@Smapti](#): > > The Special Rapporteur is either ignorant or corrupt. Possibly both. Nah. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2904 "2023-12-28T03:09:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Bleh. …not sure what this means. You don’t think Israel is starving the people of Gaza? > **[Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza)** > > The Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare in the occupied Gaza Strip, which is a war crime. Israeli forces are deliberately blocking the delivery of water, food, and fuel, while willfully impeding humanitarian... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2905 "2023-12-28T03:11:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …apologise for what? Come on, man. Do we _really_ have to play these games? We both know _exactly_ what you are accusing Israel of doing. I am asking - when it turns out that your Hamas inspired sources are wrong, and Israel will neither clear the Gaza strip of Palestinians nor annex it, you would be open to amending your view of the situation. Your response makes the answer crystal clear. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2906 "2023-12-28T03:12:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this is a strategy that will come with the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. The bombings have already claimed over 20,000 lives. UN estimates that the same number again is buried under the rubble. They estimate that even more will die from famine, infection and disease. > > And you can’t even tell me how many Hamas people have been killed. Correct. The word in English for that state of affairs is war. This is what war looks like. This is what every war has ever looked like. Anyone claiming that Israel’s behavior is atypical is either unaware of what war is or is lying because they intend to depict Israel in a negative light. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2907 "2023-12-28T03:22:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Come on, man. Do we _really_ have to play these games? …what game? > [@Babale](#): > > We both know _exactly_ what you are accusing Israel of doing. I am asking - when it turns out that your Hamas inspired sources are wrong, I’ve taken care in most instances to cite reputable sources. If there are any that I’ve quoted you disagree with, feel free to point them out. > [@Babale](#): > > and Israel will neither clear the Gaza strip of Palestinians nor annex it, you would be open to amending your view of the situation. Considering the things you have said in this thread that you _haven’t_ apologised for, it really is a bit rich of you to ask me this question. But I have always been open to amending my view of the situation. My view now, in light of the strategy and tactics being used in this war, is that they are driving people own to the southernmost border, and systematically destroying civilian infrastructure in the rest of Gaza, starting in the north, and moving their way down. > [@Smapti](#): > > Correct. The word in English for that state of affairs is war. After the last World War the world agreed on these things that you don’t believe exist, the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. The way Israel have conducted this war have violated those conventions and laws in multiple ways. You’ve made it clear that you don’t care about these things. But history will judge otherwise. > [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone claiming that Israel’s behavior is atypical is either unaware of what war is or is lying because they intend to depict Israel in a negative light. Israel’s behaviour is typical of places that _ignore_ the rules of war, that’s true. It’s a campaign that will be remembered for its brutality, for the war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2908 "2023-12-28T03:28:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > After the last World War the world agreed on these things that you don’t believe exist, the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. Well, hallelujah! There must not be anything to worry about then, because there can’t be a war in Israel in the first place. After all, Hamas attacking Israel like supposedly happened on 10/7 would have been illegal. All Israel had to do was pick up the phone and call the War Police in Geneva, they would’ve written Hamas a ticket for being naughty, and life would have gone on. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2909 "2023-12-28T03:28:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …not sure what this means It means I messed up my post and redid it a moment later. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You don’t think Israel is starving the people of Gaza? Don’t let me ruin whatever story you’re telling yourself about the evil callous Israeli scumbag, though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2910 "2023-12-28T03:31:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What makes Israel look bad is 80 days of siege that has bought Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas will not release any more hostages without a permanent ceasefire. This makes it difficult to bring in supplies. Jordan has made precision air drops already but they could bypass this using individual package drops from the same planes. [Here’s a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_EfYHrfoA) of them loading cardboard boxes with small packets and launching them from a C-130. The cardboard boxes tumble immediately when they hit the air stream and the packets spill out. This would bypass the need for dangerous convoys that Hamas can commandeer for themselves. The supplies would be scattered all over so people have a chance to get them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2911 "2023-12-28T03:38:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Jordan has made precision air drops already but they could bypass this using individual package drops from the same planes. [Here’s a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_EfYHrfoA) of them loading cardboard boxes with small packets and launching them from a C-130. Huh. That’s weird. I was told Israel was trying to starve all the Gazans to death because of Reasons. You’d think they wouldn’t just let foreign third parties drop food into the area if that were the case. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2912 "2023-12-28T03:44:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, hallelujah! There must not be anything to worry about then, because there can’t be a war in Israel in the first place. After all, Hamas attacking Israel like supposedly happened on 10/7 would have been illegal. …what I’m worried about are the thousands of dead Palestinian children, of the thousands of Palestinian children that are now amputees, of the thousands of Palestinians who can’t access healthcare, who are living in shelters with 1 toilet for every 700 people, who don’t know if and when a bomb might be dropped on them no matter where they are in Gaza. > [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas will not release any more hostages without a permanent ceasefire. This makes it difficult to bring in supplies. This isn’t what makes it difficult to bring in supplies. That would be the total blockade of the strip. > **[Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip (2023–present)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)** > > On 9 October 2023, Israel intensified the blockade of the Gaza Strip after the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel and the ensuing Israel–Hamas war when it announced a "total blockade", blocking the entry of food, water, medicine, fuel and electricity. > [@Magiver](#): > > Jordan has made precision air drops already but they could bypass this using individual package drops from the same planes. [Here’s a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_EfYHrfoA) of them loading cardboard boxes with small packets and launching them from a C-130. The cardboard boxes tumble immediately when they hit the air stream and the packets spill out. Those airdrops were co-ordinated with the IDF. It was part of the very limited amount of humanitarian supplies that they allow in each day, nowhere near enough to provide what Gaza needs. The issue isn’t delivery. Its the _blockade_. > [@Smapti](#): > > I was told Israel was trying to starve all the Gazans to death because of Reasons. The exact quote from Human Rights Watch is that “Israel is using starvation as a weapon”, an accusation that was well-supported by the report they compiled. Limited aid _is_ being allowed in, but not at the scale that will prevent famine in a few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2913 "2023-12-28T03:46:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > what I’m worried about are the thousands of dead Palestinian children, of the thousands of Palestinian children that are now amputees, of the thousands of Palestinians who can’t access healthcare, who are living in shelters with 1 toilet for every 700 people, who don’t know if and when a bomb might be dropped on them no matter where they are in Gaza. And what are the Israelis who were butchered in their homes and had to watch as their families were murdered? Chopped liver? Why do you crow on and on about Israel’s “crimes” while ignoring the atrocity that started this war? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2914 "2023-12-28T03:52:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Don’t let me ruin whatever story you’re telling yourself about the evil callous Israeli scumbag, though. …it isn’t _my_ story. I cited Human Rights Watch. But every other humanitarian agency will tell you the same thing. Gazan’s are starving. They are at risk of famine, disease and infection. And what is preventing aid from getting through to the people of Gaza is the blockade. > [@Smapti](#): > > And what are the Israelis who were butchered in their homes and had to watch as their families were murdered? Chopped liver? I’ll repeat what I’ve said since the start of this thread. This was an act of evil, it was barbaric, and Israel had every right to respond. > [@Smapti](#): > > Why do you crow on and on about Israel’s “crimes” while ignoring the atrocity that started this war? Because I _haven’t_ ignored the atrocity. I’ve condemned it over and over again, in this thread and others. Hamas should be destroyed. And if Israel had adopted a strategy of taking out Hamas, then you would never ever would have heard from me. But the strategy they have adopted hasn’t targeted Hamas. Its been a campaign against largely civilian infrastructure, and widespread civilian casualties have resulted. The campaign has relentlessly driven people south to the border, while they flatten the cities to the north. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=138) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=140)