# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/263 "2023-10-17T19:12:09Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > It seems like thoughtless wording to me, when actual children of your own side have been killed and you’re in the process of killing actual children of the opposing side - over a thousand at current count - and the words can be interpreted as rather genocidal, which is unfortunate when many, including people that should be on your own side, are accusing you of genocide. > > [https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1713272770606379244](https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1713272770606379244) IfNotNow has been protesting the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government since 2014 if I recall correctly. I’m not quite sure what you objected to in the link in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/264 "2023-10-17T19:14:42Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > So now there’s a risk Iran and Hezbollah (the latter based in Lebanon) will attack Israel. What will the response from the U.S. be if that happens? Hezbollah has already been attacking Israel, lobbing rockets since Oct 7 or 8. Iran is probably behind at least some of this, they’re happy to fund various organizations with common goals and let the other people be cannon fodder for their causes, but it can’t be directly proven. If Iran steps in to openly participate…? I don’t know. Pretty sure nobody really does. The people who might actually know won’t be telling the public until after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/265 "2023-10-17T19:23:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > IfNotNow has been protesting the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government since 2014 if I recall correctly. I’m not quite sure what you objected to in the link in your post. I didn’t object to anything in the link in my post. I pointed out that Netanyahu is being accused by some of genocide, including by the American Jews of IfNotNow, so it was unfortunate that his tweet could be interpreted as genocidal. Maybe he meant it to sound genocidal. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/266 "2023-10-17T19:24:11Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > So now there’s a risk Iran and Hezbollah (the latter based in Lebanon) will attack Israel. What will the response from the U.S. be if that happens? The US has two carrier groups in the region, and Air Force fighters in Quatar. I’m just speculating, but I think the US would use its assets to assist Israel with stopping Hezbaollah or Iran. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/267 "2023-10-17T19:41:39Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Maybe he meant it to sound genocidal. umm…you do realize that Hamas is absolutely committed to committing genocide? Cite: here’s a quote from the constitution of Hamas “Israel will exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > when actual children of your own side have been killed and you’re in the process of killing actual children of the opposing side you do realize that there is a difference? Intentionally targeting, killing and kidnapping babies, is a bit different than Israel targeting and killing terrorists who are hiding among their own babies? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/268 "2023-10-17T19:42:13Z")
And now a hospital in Gaza has been bombed and 200-300 are feared dead. This is bad. This is very bad. Unsurprisingly, fingers are being pointed at each other. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/269 "2023-10-17T19:49:19Z")
Agree. But has the story been verified? And if it has been bombed, I don’t think we can automatically assume it was due to a missile strike by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/270 "2023-10-17T19:55:35Z")
Israeli sources say it was a failed rocket launch by PIJ that set off a secondary explosion in an ammunition dump in the hospital. > **[Hundreds said killed in Gaza hospital blast; IDF blames failed Islamic Jihad...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-october-17-2023/#liveblog-entry-3126992)** > > Abbas cancels Biden meeting, blaming IDF for hospital explosion \* Rocket barrages continue deep into Israel \* PM tells Scholz Hamas 'are the new Nazis' \* IDF chief warns Hezbollah Terrible situation either way. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/271 "2023-10-17T19:56:59Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Agree. But has the story been verified? And if it has been bombed, I don’t think we can automatically assume it was due to a missile strike by Israel… I didn’t mean to imply that. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/272 "2023-10-17T20:05:55Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > umm…you do realize that Hamas is absolutely committed to committing genocide? > > Cite: here’s a quote from the constitution of Hamas > “Israel will exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” > > [The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) You realise those are words? Their actions might suggest things aren’t so black and white. From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Political_policy): > [@](#): > > Hamas policy towards the two-state solution and towards Israel has evolved. > > … > > In 2005, Hamas signed the Palestinian Cairo Declaration, which recognized the 1967 borders, as did the Palestinian Prisoners’ Document, which Hamas signed in 2006. Hamas signed the Mecca Agreement in 2007 which recognized previous agreements between PLO and Israel. Finally Hamas signed the Cairo and Doha Agreements in 2011 and 2012. In 2017, Hamas unveiled a new charter that many scholar believed accepted the 1967 borders, but others disputed this. > > … > > In 2006, Hamas signed the Palestinian Prisoners’ Document, which recognized the 1967 borders. > > … > > Khaled Mashaal, its leader, has publicly affirmed the movement’s readiness to accept the borders of 1967. When Hamas won a majority in the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, Haniyeh, then president-elect, sent messages to both George Bush and Israel’s leaders asking to be recognized and offering a long-term truce (hudna), along the 1967 border lines. No response came. > > In March 2006, Hamas released its official legislative program. The document clearly signaled that Hamas could refer the issue of recognizing Israel to a national referendum. Under the heading “Recognition of Israel,” it stated simply (AFP, 3/11/06): “The question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people.” This was a major shift away from their 1988 charter. A few months later, via University of Maryland’s Jerome Segal, the group sent a letter to U.S. President George W. Bush stating they “don’t mind having a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders”, and asked for direct negotiations: “Segal emphasized that a state within the 1967 borders and a truce for many years could be considered Hamas’s de facto recognition of Israel.” > > … > > In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Mashal and former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the “right of return” to all Palestinian refugees. In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce “if Israel recognized the Palestinians’ national rights”. In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group’s support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: “We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital.” On December 1, 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated, “We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees,” and “Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles.” > > In November 2011, Hamas leader Khaled Mishal made an agreement with Mahmoud Abbas in Cairo, in which he committed to respecting the 1967 borders. > > In February 2012, according to the Palestinian authority, Hamas forswore the use of violence. Evidence for this was provided by an eruption of violence from Islamic Jihad in March 2012 after an Israeli assassination of a Jihad leader, during which Hamas refrained from attacking Israel. What about Israel? Here’s the Israeli ambassador to the UK: > Does that not logically mean the obliteration of Palestine? She is far from alone in her views. What about Israeli actions? Here’s a graph of Israeli settlement in the West Bank, which forms the main bulk of the Palestinian territories: [![](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20001.jpeg) ](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20001.jpeg) How can one argue that that is not the deliberate eradication of Palestine? Then we look at Gaza, before this week described by both Israelis and outsiders as being turned into a “prison”, and then this week with thousands killed, a million displaced, cities razed to rubble, and things are only just beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/273 "2023-10-17T20:12:17Z")
> [@Hamas attacks Israel, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/453): > > Israeli sources say it was a Palestinian rocket that fell short. I suppose confirmation will come soon enough. And people will believe whatever side they want to believe. So it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/274 "2023-10-17T20:15:39Z")
> [@Hamas attacks Israel, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/453): > > Israeli sources say it was a Palestinian rocket that fell short. Are these sources reliable? All I’ve seen from IDF is that they’re investigating. Edit: just saw your post in the other thread. Sorry–it’s a lot to keep track of. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/275 "2023-10-17T20:16:48Z")
I would think they would have to examine the hospital. Perhaps they were tracking a missile to shoot it down. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/276 "2023-10-17T20:23:28Z")
It’s a bit tricky to do a forensic investigation in an overcrowded undersupplied hospital in the middle of a shooting war. I wish anyone attempting it luck - they’ll need it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/277 "2023-10-17T20:27:19Z")
I’m no explosives expert, but I rather doubt that any Palestinian rocket that fell short has the payload to kill 500 people in a hospital, especially given that hospitals are usually rather sturdy buildings. That sounds more like…JDAM-sized stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/278 "2023-10-17T20:33:30Z")
Well, and they should have record of every single missile and bomb fired by the IDF and where it was targeted, as well as confirmation of the results if at all possible. Israel isn’t lobbing rockets willy-nilly like Hamas is; they’re an organized army, not a band of rebels. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/279 "2023-10-17T20:34:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m no explosives expert, but I rather doubt that any Palestinian rocket that fell short has the payload to kill 500 people in a hospital, especially given that hospitals are usually rather sturdy buildings Hamas _has_ used hospitals as ammunition dumps in the past ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/280 "2023-10-17T20:46:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israeli sources say it was a failed rocket launch by PIJ that set off a secondary explosion in an ammunition dump in the hospital. An ammunition dump at a hospital? That would involve multiple violations of international law, that would never happen! /s ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/281 "2023-10-17T20:47:35Z")
Your shock has been duly noted, [**Captain Renault**](https://noagenda.fandom.com/wiki/I%27m_shocked,_shocked_to_find_that_gambling_is_going_on_in_here!). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/282 "2023-10-17T21:07:02Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > An ammunition dump at a hospital? That would involve multiple violations of international law, that would never happen! /s According to Gaza’s Health Ministry–and I have no idea how reliable they are–this same hospital was attacked two days prior. There are three major questions here: 1. Was there an ammo dump at the hospital, or not? 2. Were the rockets Israeli rockets or Palestinian rockets? 3. Was the hospital targeted two days ago, and if so, by whom? If the hospital was targeted two days ago, that lends credence to the attack being Israeli. If there’s a known ammo dump at the hospital, that also lends credence to the attack being IDF. If neither of these things are true, that seems to me to make it much less likely that today’s horror was from the IDF. Most of all, though, I don’t have nearly enough information to have an opinion at this point, and I’m not sure anyone else, outside of the killer who fired the rocket, does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=15)