# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 140
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2915 "2023-12-28T03:57:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because I _haven’t_ ignored the atrocity. I’ve condemned it over and over again, in this thread and others. Hamas should be destroyed. And if Israel had adopted a strategy of taking out Hamas, then you would never ever would have heard from me. Then tell me what “a strategy of taking out Hamas” would look like. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But the strategy they have adopted hasn’t targeted Hamas. Its been a campaign against largely civilian infrastructure, and widespread civilian casualties have resulted. Because Hamas operates out of civilian areas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2916 "2023-12-28T04:00:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then tell me what “a strategy of taking out Hamas” would look like. …it would be one that complied with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. > [@Smapti](#): > > Because Hamas operates out of civilian areas. Meaningless talking point. This means Israel should be taking _more_ care in their bombing campaign, not _less_. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2917 "2023-12-28T04:02:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The issue isn’t delivery. Its the _blockade_. The blockade consists of Hamas not agreeing to a ceasefire. But you’re right. Air drops are coordinated with Israel to get around that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2918 "2023-12-28T04:05:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it would be one that complied with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. Which would entail what, exactly? Don’t just say “they should do it the way I think they should do it” - tell me what specific and concrete actions Israel should be taking, and how that would be different than what’s happening now. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2919 "2023-12-28T04:11:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it would be one that complied with the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. Meaningless talking point. _What does that look like_? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2920 "2023-12-28T05:09:48Z")
Absolute heroism under fire and their mission is to save Israeli soldiers lives. Later in the article they explain Master Sgt S. was studying in a US medical school. He took a taxi straight to the airport and was on duty in Israel with Unit 669 by the following evening. It’s humbling to learn there are soldiers with this dedication to saving their comrades lives. 🫡 Link [The Israeli squad racing to rescue soldiers blown apart by booby traps](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/13/unit-669-israel-medics-rescue-operations-gaza-palmachim/) > [@](#): > > Within four minutes of an alert at their base at an abandoned kibbutz on Gaza’s borders, they must be ready to scramble. Then, as they drive over the frontier and [into the battlefield](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/09/israeli-military-hamas-military-quarter-gaza/), the “golden hour” begins. > > According to the rough-and-ready metrics of combat medicine, this is the time window in which a badly wounded soldier must receive expert medical care to stand a chance of survival. Yet as Master Sergeant “S”, a combat medic in the 669, knows all too well, much can go wrong in those 60 minutes. > > “From the moment we are in Gaza [we are at risk from Hamas](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/10/israel-isnt-struggling-in-gaza-its-winning-a-rapid-victory/), even if you don’t see any of their fighters,” he told the Telegraph. “They have drones overhead that can carry grenades, and any piece of rubble you step on, or door you go through, can be booby trapped.” > > Formed in the wake of the 1974 Yom Kippur war, Unit 669 combines medical expertise with SAS-level infantry prowess. > > In a country that has long prided itself on not abandoning its injured, its motto quotes Psalm 50: “Call upon me in times of trouble, I will be there for you and rescue you.” > > Since last month’s Hamas massacre, it has carried out hundreds of rescue operations, many starting with an edgy drive through Gaza’s maze-like streets. > > “Luckily we have a navigator who is like a human Waze (an online navigation app) that can find his way through any alley or backstreet,” says Master Sgt S. > > The horrors his team often come across upon reaching their destination show that for all Israel’s military superiority, Hamas can hit back very hard. > > “Our first mission was to help a team of soldiers who had been hit by an anti-tank missile – there were three of them who were badly injured, and the most critically wounded one was barely breathing,” said Master Sgt S. “We treated him for a haemothorax (an operation to clear a lung of trapped blood) and got him out within 50 minutes. During these operations, you eat, sleep and breathe the golden hour. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2921 "2023-12-28T05:30:19Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It’s humbling to learn there are soldiers with this dedication to saving their comrades lives. It would be if his comrades weren’t so hell bent on killing civilians, to the point of killing escaped hostages waving a white flag, even. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2922 "2023-12-28T05:45:25Z")
It would be interesting to know if Israeli medics treat enemy wounded. I know for certain that US medics treated civilian and enemy combatants in Iraq. When someone is bleeding out the uniform they are wearing doesn’t matter. They are supposed to receive emergency medical even when there’s a possibility the body is booby-trapped. Removing it of course would delay treatment. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2923 "2023-12-28T05:56:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > When someone is bleeding out the uniform they are wearing doesn’t matter. Again. Shooting dead unarmed civilians (who turn out to be escaped hostages, no less) with white flags. That gives me all the context I need to understand just how concerned the IDF is about treating people humanely in Gaza. To be wounded, you have to not be dead first. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2924 "2023-12-28T06:24:32Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > . Shooting dead unarmed civilians (who turn out to be escaped hostages, no less) with white flags. Why, it’s almost as if their enemy has been known to wave white flags in order to lure them into ambushes or something. How do you expect Israel to play by a set of rules its enemies ignore freely? > > **[Ambushes and booby traps: Hamas tactics stir confusion, fear, danger](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/22/hamas-booby-traps-gaza/)** > > Israeli soldiers’ wariness of the militant group’s tricks might have been a factor in the IDF killing of three Israeli hostages, analysts say. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/_uOug-mN3Tw/hqdefault.jpg "Hamas Terrorist Hides Behind White Flag Gaza") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2925 "2023-12-28T06:40:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which would entail what, exactly? Don’t just say “they should do it the way I think they should do it” - tell me what specific and concrete actions Israel should be taking, and how that would be different than what’s happening now. > [@Babale](#): > > Meaningless talking point. _What does that look like_? …I mean: I’ve answered this very same question multiple times. Its to wage a war within the confines of the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. If Israel ever starts doing that in this war, I’ll stop posting here. Can neither of you imagine conducting a war that didn’t take 20 hospitals out of action? That doesn’t involve starving 2.3 million people? That doesn’t involve forcing 1.9 million people out of their homes, then systematically destroying them? Can neither of you imagine waging a war that doesn’t involve thousands of dead children, thousands of dead innocent people? That doesn’t involve herding millions of people to the southern border? Because that is all that I’ve ever suggested here. It shouldn’t take a leap of the imagination to see how that would be possible. If you are targeting a terrorist organization, then you don’t collectively punish millions of innocent civilians. I don’t owe it to anyone to “outline a better strategy.” Not anyone here in this thread. I think my position has been crystal clear here, I think my position has been responsible here, and everything I’ve said has been supported by multiple, reputable, independent cites. All of the humanitarian agencies are calling for the same thing. An end to the siege. Stop targeting hospitals. Stop targeting civilian infrastructure. Stop the indiscriminate bombing. Allow access for the Red Cross/Crescent to the people the IDF are holding in detention. I’ll continue to advocate for that, just like I’ll continue to advocate for the unconditional release of the remaining hostages held by Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2926 "2023-12-28T06:46:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I mean: I’ve answered this very same question multiple times. Its to wage a war within the confines of the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. A non-answer if ever there was one. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can neither of you imagine conducting a war that didn’t take 20 hospitals out of action? That doesn’t involve starving 2.3 million people? That doesn’t involve forcing 1.9 million people out of their homes, then systematically destroying them? Can neither of you imagine waging a war that doesn’t involve thousands of dead children, thousands of dead innocent people? That doesn’t involve herding millions of people to the southern border? Evidently you cannot, seeing as you refuse to describe any alternative. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think my position has been crystal clear here, I think my position has been responsible here, and everything I’ve said has been supported by multiple, reputable, independent cites. If Al-Jazeera and the UN are your idea of unbiased sources for news about Israel, then I think this conversation is at an impasse. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > All of the humanitarian agencies are calling for the same thing. Of course they are. That’s their job. If a humanitarian agency was whooping it up and shouting “Bomb 'em once for me, Bibi!” I’d be deeply concerned. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I don’t owe it to anyone to “outline a better strategy.” Not anyone here in this thread. “Israel should do things differently!” “Like how?” “DIFFERENTLY!” That’s what this has boiled down to. It’s hard to take you seriously when you say you want Hamas held to account when you unilaterally condemn every single thing Israel has done, offer no suggestions for what they should do instead, and deny or ignore Hamas’ consistent and wanton perfidy and disregard for the lives of its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2927 "2023-12-28T06:53:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why, it’s almost as if their enemy has been known to wave white flags in order to lure them into ambushes or something. How do you expect Israel to play by a set of rules its enemies ignore freely? It’s almost like there’s a _reason_ why armed dorces that give even an eighth of a shit about the lives of their own people _don’t_ hide behind civilians or pretend to surrender, despite the obvious short term benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2928 "2023-12-28T06:55:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I mean: I’ve answered this very same question multiple times. Its to wage a war within the confines of the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. If Israel ever starts doing that in this war, I’ll stop posting here. 🤣 And then you have the gall to call the accurate description of Hamas’ tactics as “human shields” a “meaningless talking point”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2929 "2023-12-28T06:56:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can neither of you imagine conducting a war that didn’t take 20 hospitals out of action? That doesn’t involve starving 2.3 million people? That doesn’t involve forcing 1.9 million people out of their homes, then systematically destroying them? Can neither of you imagine waging a war that doesn’t involve thousands of dead children, thousands of dead innocent people? That doesn’t involve herding millions of people to the southern border? Against an enemy like Hamas, which specifically acts to make that impossible? No, I cannot imagine that. I have repeatedly asked you to explain what you imagine this looking like, but all I get is meaningless talking points. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2930 "2023-12-28T06:57:41Z")
I mean, if we all _pretend_ that Hamas doesn’t do things like hide out in hospitals, then I can imagine the IDF coming in and arresting all the Hamas terrorists at their clearly labeled Hamas compound. But not in _real life_, no. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2931 "2023-12-28T07:16:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A non-answer if ever there was one. …it answers the question as best as I can. > [@Smapti](#): > > Evidently you cannot, seeing as you refuse to describe any alternative. I’ve provided the alternative. Don’t shut down the hospitals. Don’t force 1.9 million people out of their homes. Don’t start a siege. Don’t kill thousand’s of people with an indiscriminate bombing campaign. The very first thing I would do would be not to rely on the Gospel. (Cites upthread) I think reliance on Artificial Intelligence to significantly ramp up the amount of targets would make the world of difference. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Al-Jazeera and the UN are your idea of unbiased sources for news about Israel, then I think this conversation is at an impasse. I’m sorry, but what do you think the agenda of the United Nations is here? Are you arguing we shouldn’t be using them as a source? Care to elaborate? And the word multiple means that anything I’ve cited can be verified in a number of different ways. Al-Jazeera _is_ reputable, and in the articles I’ve used here they have cited multiple independent sources. If you want to dispute anything I’ve cited, feel free. And I didn’t say unbiased. I’ve conceded that they are biased, just like every other news organization that covers this war. > [@Smapti](#): > > Of course they are. That’s their job. And we should be listening to them, not dismissing them. > [@Smapti](#): > > “Israel should do things differently!” > “Like how?” > “DIFFERENTLY!” More like “they should comply with the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war, more specifically stop targeting hospitals, end the siege, stop using AI target generation, allow UN access to detainees.” I’d ask that you stop misrepresenting what I say. I’ve addressed this question over and over again. > [@Smapti](#): > > That’s what this has boiled down to. Incorrect. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s hard to take you seriously when you say you want Hamas held to account when you unilaterally condemn every single thing Israel has done, I’ve condemned the **very obvious war crimes.** The siege. The targeting of the hospitals. The treatment of detainees. Do you not condemn these things? Or are these things that you unilaterally support? > [@Smapti](#): > > offer no suggestions for what they should do instead, I’ve done this over and over again. > [@Smapti](#): > > and deny or ignore Hamas’ consistent and wanton perfidy and disregard for the lives of its citizens. The siege is all on Israel. The indiscriminate bombing campaign is all on Israel. The targeting of the hospitals is all on Isreal. The thousands of dead children are all on Israel. The breakdown of the healthcare system is all on Israel. The destruction of historical buildings, the razing of crops, the destruction of records: that’s all on Israel. Do you condemn any of this? I’ve condemned Hamas. Can you condemn the multiple war crimes committed by Israel? > [@Babale](#): > > 🤣 > > And then you have the gall to call the accurate description of Hamas’ tactics as “human shields” a “meaningless talking point”. Can you clarify the laughing emoji here: do you support the multiple war crimes that have been documented here that committed by the IDF? A yes or no would suffice. > [@Babale](#): > > Against an enemy like Hamas, which specifically acts to make that impossible? No, I cannot imagine that. I have repeatedly asked you to explain what you imagine this looking like, but all I get is meaningless talking points. Stop targeting hospitals isn’t a meaningless talking point. It’s a specific course of action. Its a significant change in strategy. Stop using the Gospel isn’t a meaningless talking point. Its significant change in strategy that would result in both significantly less civilian casualties and a response that would focus on actually targeting Hamas. > [@Babale](#): > > I mean, if we all _pretend_ that Hamas doesn’t do things like hide out in hospitals, We don’t have to _pretend_. They _weren’t_ hiding in the hospitals, which means that targeting them were war crimes. And even if they were hiding in the hospitals, once the threat had been eliminated Israel had obligations to do what they could to keep the hospitals running. Instead it kicked patients and those seeking shelter out of the hospitals then destroyed essential infrastructure. This has been _extensively documented in this thread_. _You_ were the one who claimed that there _were_ “clearly labeled Hamas Compounds” at hospitals at Al Shifa. That was _your_ position here. _I’m_ the one who said no, there is no evidence of that, and it turned out that _I was correct_. Yet I don’t see you apologising when things didn’t turn out your way. The difference is that I’m not demanding you apologise. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2932 "2023-12-28T07:50:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > To do what, exactly? Israel is a sovereign nation in the midst of a war for its existence. Yes, i think they have committed war crimes. But > > 1. who is in a position to stop them? Well, if they weren’t a US ally an international coalition might formed against them such as has happened against other nations, but that’s not the world we live in. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > i don’t actually think the goal of Israel is genocide. I think they see that as an unfortunate means to an end, which is to destroy Hamas. There are people in Netanyahu’s government who have openly called for genocide against the Palestinians, thus, I have to disagree with that. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > i think Israelis, including Israeli intelligence, believed there were military targets in the hospitals. Even if they thought they it appears they were wrong. In any case, international norms say that after you take over a hospital you’re supposed to see to it that it can keep running as a hospital or at the very least provide care to the injured and ill. None of which Israel has done. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If hamas hides with civilians in declared safe areas, Israel bombs them. > If hamas hides among civilians, the civilians should leave. There is somewhere to go, away from hamas. Not in Gaza. No one in Gaza is being allowed to leave. The areas designated as “safe” have been bombed repeatedly. > [@Smapti](#): > > Why, it’s almost as if their enemy has been known to wave white flags in order to lure them into ambushes or something. How do you expect Israel to play by a set of rules its enemies ignore freely? So you’re OK with the IDF gunning down absolutely anyone and everyone they encounter in Gaza? Because that’s essentially what you’re condoning. I agree that there are problems with ambushes posing as surrenders, but that’s an issue in every war. Yet there are ways to deal with such circumstances that don’t entail simply killing everything that moves. Clearly, the IDF is not utilizing them since it treats even Israeli hostages asking for rescue as if they were Hamas fighters and simply kill them without a second thought. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Al-Jazeera and the UN are your idea of unbiased sources for news about Israel, then I think this conversation is at an impasse. So… what are YOUR “unbiased sources” of information? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And even if they were hiding in the hospitals, once the threat had been eliminated Israel had obligations to do what they could to keep the hospitals running. Instead it kicked patients and those seeking shelter out of the hospitals then destroyed essential infrastructure. This has been _extensively documented in this thread_. ^ That, right there, is an unequivocal war crime committed by Israel. Even if you assume that the IDF had justification for targeting the hospitals _after the IDF took over the hospitals_ they should have rendered care to the patients who had been unable to leave, or transported them to medical care elsewhere. The IDF chose not to do that. That was wrong and a crime. They left people to die and their corpses to rot. Bedridden people in ICU’s and babies in incubators were not threats to anyone and should have received care but did not. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2933 "2023-12-28T08:04:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ve provided the alternative. Don’t shut down the hospitals. Don’t force 1.9 million people out of their homes. Don’t start a siege. Don’t kill thousand’s of people with an indiscriminate bombing campaign. And when Hamas keeps staging soldiers in hospitals and homes and sniping at the IDF and firing missiles into Israel from them, what then? “Sorry, guys, can’t do nothin’, they’re on base and them’s the rules”? Rules only work when **both parties agree on them**. You’re complaining that Israel castled after moving its rook; meanwhile, Hamas has knocked the board off the table and is beating Israel with a folding chair. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Al-Jazeera _is_ reputable, and in the articles I’ve used here they have cited multiple independent sources. Al-Jazeera is literally state-run propaganda financed and controlled by the same country that is sheltering Hamas’ leaders and has funded them to the tune of billions of dollars. They are not an unbiased source. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m sorry, but what do you think the agenda of the United Nations is here? The UN are at best a bunch of wishy-washy do-nothings constitutionally incapable of responding to an international crisis, and at worst outright stooges for totalitarians and despots. They proved this when they decided it was easier to just do nothing about Ukraine than to strip Russia of the veto power it was never supposed to have in the first place. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > More like “they should comply with the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war, more specifically stop targeting hospitals, end the siege, stop using AI target generation, allow UN access to detainees.” > > I’d ask that you stop misrepresenting what I say. I’ve addressed this question over and over again. And _what would that look like_? That’s the question you refuse to answer. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you not condemn these things? No, I do not condemn Israel for fighting Hamas in the places where Hamas is operating. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The siege is all on Israel. The indiscriminate bombing campaign is all on Israel. The targeting of the hospitals is all on Isreal. The thousands of dead children are all on Israel. The breakdown of the healthcare system is all on Israel. The destruction of historical buildings, the razing of crops, the destruction of records: that’s all on Israel. So all of that would still be happening if 10/7 had just been an ordinary day like any other? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Stop targeting hospitals isn’t a meaningless talking point. If Hamas wants Israel to stop targeting hospitals then it should stop using them as missile batteries. Your argument that Hamas is completely honoring the “laws of war” and Israel is indiscriminately bombing targets with no military value just for the sake of killing Arabs is unjustifiable and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2934 "2023-12-28T08:07:37Z")
I’m not a particularly neutral observer of the situation, as I’ve generally been fairly pro-Israel in my views (I’m an American non-practicing Jew). So, take this all with a grain of salt. But… I understand why the international community is strongly calling for a cease-fire. And, at a basic level, that reflects well on the international community. Less people dying horribly = good. But… why isn’t the international community equally stridently calling for Hamas to surrender unconditionally and immediately? I mean, that would presumably stop the killing just as effectively. It’s not like Hamas has any chance of achieving anything like military victory. And if you’re of the cynical mindset which says that Israel is basically just committing genocide, which I am not, then at least it would put Israel to the test, lay its perfidy bare for the world to see (if Hamas surrendered and laid down their arms but Israel kept up the killing). In other words, there are two sides fighting right now. Each side has an action at its disposal which will presumably more or less instantly instantly drastically reduce the killing. Why is there only international pressure on Israel? Similarly, there has been a lot of digital ink spilled about Israel attacking hospitals. Which, certainly, on the surface sounds pretty awful. But… was Hamas defending those hospitals? Why? Were people shooting back at Israel as it approached/attacked them? Was Israel blowing them up anyways? And if Hamas was not in fact defending them and they were not in fact hiding secret Hamas tunnel installations (or at least, if Israel didn’t honestly think so), then what on earth would motivate Israel to attack them? Taking a step back, I think the difficulty in understanding what’s going on here comes down to the difference between these two slightly exaggerated extremes: (1) Israel is trying to root out Hamas, but doing everything practical and imaginable to kill/injure/displace as few innocents as possible (2) Israel is trying to root out Hamas, but, what the fuck, might as well genocide those Palestinians, who they hate and view as subhuman interlopers on their chosen land, while they’re at it The trouble is… it’s very difficult for any of us, who are not experts in the reality of modern urban warfare, to really evaluate the evidence that would distinguish between those two extremes… and it’s made even more difficult by the combination of fog of war and untrustworthy reports from biased sources, and how compacted and crammed together Gaza is. Could Israel be vigorously pursuing and attacking Hamas with the due diligence necessary to protect its citizens, and be killing significantly fewer civilians? How many fewer? At what cost in its own people and materiel? I honestly don’t think any of us know. And “here’s yet another story of people suffering or dying horribly” doesn’t really inform that one way or the other. All of that said… I’m still far more inclined to trust Israeli reports and claims than Palestinian. Why? Because Israel is, despite its flaws, an open and pluralistic society with a free press and a strong tradition of democracy. Which doesn’t prevent atrocities or conspiracies. But does at least somewhat check them. Could there have been a conspiracy in the IDF to first lie about clearly-innocent hospitals and then attack them, and then fake up tons of evidence to make them appear to have been Hamas bases which they weren’t… just because? I mean, I guess? But, because Israel’s is a modern military with a centralized command structure, that would have required meetings and notes and orders and records and many many people signing off on something that would be an absolutely horrific war crime if it came out… in a society in which there is a free press, large segments of the populace suspicious of the government, and free access to the internet and other points of view. That doesn’t mean it’s IMPOSSIBLE that Israel just randomly decided to make itself appear extra evil for no military gain at a time when its international PR is in a very precarious state. But… it certainly seems like an odd choice for no particularly benefit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=139) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=141)