# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2955 "2023-12-28T18:17:11Z")
In videos of tunnels, are those insects flying about? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2956 "2023-12-28T23:45:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The hostages were shot by jumpy, tired soldiers who had been advancing under fire through hostile territory. “I am le tired” is a shitty excuse for killing unarmed innocents. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2957 "2023-12-28T23:55:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Well, yeah. I mean, it’s almost too obvious to restate it here, but a ceasefire almost always benefits the defender and hurts the attacker. … it’s almost too obvious to restate it here, but a ceasefire will mean innocent Palestinian civilians will stop getting killed by indiscriminate bombing. It will allow the health system to start to recover. Maybe even get some hospital reopened. A ceasefire would allow scope to get more aid, food, water, fuel, medical supplies, to the people that desperately need it. A ceasefire is being called for by every single humanitarian agency on the ground because the consequences of _allowing this war to continue as is_ will end up with hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians dead. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2958 "2023-12-29T00:02:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … it’s almost too obvious to restate it here, but a ceasefire will mean innocent Palestinian civilians will stop getting killed by indiscriminate bombing. It will allow the health system to start to recover. Maybe even get some hospital reopened. A ceasefire would allow scope to get more aid, food, water, fuel, medical supplies, to the people that desperately need it. A ceasefire is being called for by every single humanitarian agency on the ground because the consequences of _allowing this war to continue as is_ will end up with hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians dead It’s almost too obvious to state, but it would _also_ allow Hamas to rearm and reentrench, meaning that when the ceasefire ends we will have to go through all this again just to get to where we are now, before continuing on to the war’s conclusion. I get why _Hamas_ wants to drag on the war on for as long as possible; I don’t get why people who claim to want what’s best for Palestinians want that. The only way this stops is when Hamas is permenantly defeated. A ceasefire is a great way of preventing that from happening. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2959 "2023-12-29T00:05:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The only way this stops is when Hamas is permenantly defeated. A ceasefire is a great way of preventing that from happening. How will we know what that has happened? What is your metric for success? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2960 "2023-12-29T00:14:24Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > How will we know what that has happened? When its leaders and the masterminds of 10/7 are dead or in prison, and Hamas no longer has military control over any part of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2961 "2023-12-29T00:17:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The only way this stops is when Hamas is permenantly defeated. A ceasefire is a great way of preventing that from happening. …at the cost of _hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinian lives._ Thats the calculus that Israel have made. They’ve decided to wage this war in the cruellest, most indiscriminate way. Starving millions of people. Driving them out of their homes…then destroying those homes. Depriving them of medical care. Forcing them to live in overcrowded unsanitary camps. Telling them to evacuate areas, then immediately bombing the places they evacuated too. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t get why people who claim to want what’s best for Palestinians want that. You don’t get why people want _this to stop_? (Spoiled for graphic video from today of why people want this to stop.) [https://twitter.com/azaizamotaz9/status/1740406783007395865](https://twitter.com/azaizamotaz9/status/1740406783007395865) Scenes like this are happening hundreds of times _every single day_ all over Gaza. A relentless cycle of buildings being flattened, of people being dug out by hand. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2962 "2023-12-29T00:19:21Z")
So when no one is left in Gaza who might support Hamas. Are we sure this isn’t an ethnic cleansing? It sure sounds like one and destroying hospitals is right out of Milosevic’s playbook, right down to claiming the “terrorrists” are hiding in them. Also, haven’t more Palestinian civilians been killed now than were killed in the Hamas attack? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2963 "2023-12-29T00:21:02Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Are we sure this isn’t an ethnic cleansing? If it were, it’d be over by now. > [@madmonk28](#): > > So when no one is left in Gaza who might support Hamas. There were still Nazis left after WWII, you know. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Also, haven’t more Palestinian civilians been killed now than were killed in the Hamas attack? More Japanese died in WWII than the civilians killed at Pearl Harbor. More southerners died in thr Civil War than northerners at the battle of Fort Sumter. More Frenchmen died in the War of Jacobs’ Ear than Jacobs lost ears. What’s your point? You don’t win wars by scoring more points and then calling it a day. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2964 "2023-12-29T00:22:40Z")
The Bosnian ethnic cleansing campaign lasted three years. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2965 "2023-12-29T00:23:47Z")
…from UNICEF, today: > [@](#): > > In the Gaza Strip, the life of any child could turn into a nightmare in the blink of an eye. Families try to keep their children safe, but this becomes harder and harder with the intense bombardments. Many houses have been destroyed, and many children ended up under the rubble. **More than 9,000 children have been injured in the Gaza Strip, leaving them grappling with the loss of an arm or a leg.** > > … > > As in many other cases in the Gaza Strip, the doctor had to carry out the surgery in inadequate conditions **and without anesthesia** due to the lack of medical supplies and equipment. The doctor managed to stop the bleeding. But her foot was infected. After several days, finally reaching al Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, the medical team was confronted with a terrible decision: they needed to amputate Ghazal’s foot. This war has so far caused _9000 child amputees_. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2966 "2023-12-29T00:29:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > More Japanese died in WWII than the civilians killed at Pearl Harbor. More southerners died in thr Civil War than northerners at the battle of Fort Sumter. More Frenchmen died in the War of Jacobs’ Ear than Jacobs lost ears. What’s your point? You don’t win wars by scoring more points and then calling it a day. My point is that if the slaughter of civilians in Israel is bad, then the slaughter of more civilians in Gaza is worse. To view it in any other light is to tacitly admit that a person does not view Palestinians as fully human, by virtue of their skin color, religion, or some other hateful metric. If a dead Israeli child matters to a poster, but not a dead Palestinian child,I would urge that poster to evaluate what it is they are supporting. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2967 "2023-12-29T00:34:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This war has so far caused _9000 child amputees_. This continued waving of the bloody shirt is the rhetorical equivalent of pro-lifers driving around trucks with posters of aborted fetuses on them. Visceral disgust at the consequences of war is not a valid argument that a war is unjust. > [@madmonk28](#): > > My point is that if the slaughter of civilians in Israel is bad, then the slaughter of more civilians in Gaza is worse. To view it in any other light is to tacitly admit that a person does not view Palestinians as fully human, by virtue of their skin color, religion, or some other hateful metric. If a dead Israeli child matters to a poster, but not a dead Palestinian child,I would urge that poster to evaluate what it is they are supporting. Israel is at war in order to protect the people of Israel. Hamas is at war to kill Jews. Different motivations make a difference when assessing the morality of military action. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2968 "2023-12-29T00:36:38Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > How will we know what that has happened? What is your metric for success? I must have answered this exact question at least a dozen times in this thread by now, but maybe 13th time will be the charm. Success requires two separate elements. In the first stage, Hamas must lose their ability to exercise control over the Gaza strip. This is done by killing their leaders and troops, destroying their equipment and facilities, and otherwise wrecking their ability to operate. Right now, the IDF has control over parts of Gaza, but not other parts. This stage will be complete when IDF control extends over the entire strip. The second stage involves ensuring that Hamas is _permanently_ defeated by ensuring that someone else controls the Gaza strip, displacing Hamas and preventing it from returning. > [@madmonk28](#): > > What is your metric for success? I don’t think either stage is _at all_ ambiguous in what the criteria for success are. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2969 "2023-12-29T00:37:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Israel is at war in order to protect the people of Israel. > > Hamas is at war to kill Jews. > > Different motivations make a difference when assessing the morality of military action. So you view Hamas as mindless Jew killing machines who have no objective, but the killing of Jews and that you are ok with slaughtering thousands of children to get at them. I think I’ve heard all I ever need to hear from you. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2970 "2023-12-29T00:57:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > This continued waving of the bloody shirt is the rhetorical equivalent of pro-lifers driving around trucks with posters of aborted fetuses on them. Visceral disgust at the consequences of war is not a valid argument that a war is unjust. …except Palestinian children aren’t the equivalent, in any way, to _aborted fetuses_. The comparison here just boggles my mind. Palestinian children, unlike aborted fetuses, are _human beings._ The comparison between the two is _morally repugnant_. If this war goes on another six months, we will be looking at anywhere between 20 and 50 thousand child amputees. Many of them orphans. The consequences and the burden of this will be felt for generations. Re-constructive surgery, rehabilitation, in a healthcare system that has been destroyed…you can’t just look at this figure in isolation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2971 "2023-12-29T01:02:32Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you view Hamas as mindless Jew killing machines who have no objective, but the killing of Jews and that you are ok with slaughtering thousands of children to get at them. Where did he say they’re _mindless?_ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2972 "2023-12-29T01:04:42Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you view Hamas as mindless Jew killing machines who have no objective, but the killing of Jews Don’t take my word for it. > **[The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)** [Quote=The Hamas Charter] Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)… …Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised… The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine… “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes… The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up… [/quote] But do go on and tell me about how misunderstood and innocent the poor downtrodden jihadists are. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2973 "2023-12-29T01:12:33Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you view Hamas as mindless Jew killing machines who have no objective, but the killing of Jews and that you are ok with slaughtering thousands of children to get at them. They’re definitely not mindless nor machines, but their main objective certainly appears to be the wholesale slaughter of Jews. How do you view Hamas, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2974 "2023-12-29T01:26:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …except Palestinian children aren’t the equivalent, in any way, to _aborted fetuses_. The comparison here just boggles my mind. > > Palestinian children, unlike aborted fetuses, are _human beings._ The comparison between the two is _morally repugnant_. I never said they were. I said that by waving around disturbing-looking images and statistics, you’re engaged in the same kind of fallacious reasoning pro-lifers are - “This looks gross, therefore it is wrong”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=143)