# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 144
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2995 "2023-12-29T02:38:58Z")
Moderating: > [@Smapti](#): > > I choose to interpret that as you conceding that it sometimes is, then. This is picking a fight. Leaning towards trolling. Once again, this is MPSIMS. Posters are allowed to disengage. In fact, that can be an excellent strategy to maintain your sanity and your posting privileges. Please don’t attack other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2996 "2023-12-29T02:39:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > AI usage during wars is here to stay; you will see it deployed on a far more massive scale the next time a Great Power goes to war. …which is terrifying. Dystopian. A nightmare. We’ve seen what its done in Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > Regardless, either a target is valid, or it isn’t. If it’s valid, I really couldn’t care less if it came from AI or not. Going from 50 targets a year to 100 targets a day makes me doubt very much that many, if not most, are valid targets. But it does explain the disproportionate toll on children. It explains the disproportionate toll on UN staffers and on journalists. And it explains why IDF spokespeople keep giving different answer on how many Hamas people they have killed…because they don’t really know, because they aren’t keeping track. > [@Babale](#): > > So, allow Hamas to operate with impunity out of these locations. Great plan, one question, how does that make Hamas surrender? I mean: these are _warcrimes_. If you want to justify the warcrimes then go ahead. Just understand exactly what it is you are defending. > [@Babale](#): > > Great idea, Iran has plenty of “humanitarian aid” that will _really_ make Hamas want ro surrender! The trucks are waiting in line for so long to get into Gaza that the food often is spoiled by the time it gets through. Let’s not pretend that it’s impossible to inspect the trucks before they go through. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2997 "2023-12-29T02:44:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Stop targeting hospitals. Stop targeting UN shelters. Stop indiscriminately bombing apartment blocks. Stop targeting churches and Mosques. > > So, allow Hamas to operate with impunity out of these locations. Great plan, one question, how does that make Hamas surrender? If Hamas is fighting with shoulder-mounted weapons, what good does it do to target a location where they happened to be standing when they launched it? I honestly don’t see how bombing any of these locations makes Hamas surrender. Granted, i have no military experience, so maybe I’m missing something obvious. But i see massive destruction of civilian infrastructure, and i can’t see how any of it advances the goal of damaging Hamas, let alone forcing it to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2998 "2023-12-29T02:48:06Z")
My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2999 "2023-12-29T02:49:31Z")
I have a (potentially) stupid question; Why’s Israel so brazen when we supply them with so much? I don’t understand that aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3000 "2023-12-29T02:50:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I have read all of your posts and my statement agrees with some Your statement agrees with absolutely none of them. Netanyahu belongs in jail. He certainly should not have blame deflected from him, nor should he remain in power. That has very little to do with the way that the IDF is fighting this war, though. Any competent prime minister would be waging this war against Hamas. Now, if you want to talk actual Bibi criticisms, he is allowing his cronies to rob the state blind to line the pockets of their ultra Orthodox supporters, at a time when there are hundreds of thousands of displaced Israelis and thousands of struggling or shuttered businesses who are told that any relief funds are locked up for the war effort. It’s an absolute fucking disgrace, and had Bibi been an absolute saint up until this scandal it would have, on its own, been outrageous enough that it would warrant calls for his resignation. Not to mention his continuing pathetic failure to acknowledge his responsibility for the failures that led to Oct 7. But that isn’t something that has come up in this thread at all. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3001 "2023-12-29T02:52:51Z")
Maybe if we blow up the planet, we’ll see the end of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3002 "2023-12-29T02:54:02Z")
Only one way to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3003 "2023-12-29T02:58:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I mean: these are _warcrimes_. If you want to justify the warcrimes then go ahead. Just understand exactly what it is you are defending. It is not a war crime to attack Hamas positions, even if Hamas operates out of places that would otherwise be protected. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > If Hamas is fighting with shoulder-mounted weapons, what good does it do to target a location where they happened to be standing when they launched it? There is the benefit of killing Hamas fighters and destroying equipment, but overall I agree, that’s why Israel’s actions in the 2014 Gaza war were, in hindsight, futile. For context, in 2014 after heavy rocket bombardment from Hamas Israel massed at the border as if preparing for an invasion, but then when Hamas took up defensive positions the IDF simply bombed those sites to bits and went home. It certainly damaged Hamas’ capabilities and prevented them from continuing their assault on Israel, but it wasn’t a decisive or lasting victory - obviously. That’s why this time aerial and artillery bombardment are used first to destroy Hamas fortifications, but then ground troops move in to destroy underground infrastructure and hold the ground. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3004 "2023-12-29T03:05:56Z")
So… Blocks of apartment buildings and hospitals are fortifications? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3005 "2023-12-29T03:09:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It is not a war crime to attack Hamas positions, even if Hamas operates out of places that would otherwise be protected. …it is a warcrime to target hospitals, to target UN shelters, to indiscriminately bomb apartment blocks. 66 Mosques have been _totally_ destroyed in Gaza by IDF attacks. There are circumstances where hospitals may become a target. But I’ve been carefully following the circumstances of what happened at each hospital in this thread, as have multiple agencies like WHO, like Doctors without Borders, like the UN. And none of the hospitals showed any evidence that Hamas were operating out of any of the hospitals. The burden has always been on Israel to justify what its targets. They haven’t been doing that here. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3006 "2023-12-29T03:09:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Blocks of apartment buildings and hospitals are fortifications? If Hamas is operating out of them? Yeah, absolutely, they can be turned into fortified positions. Look at what Ukraine has done to buildings in their own cities under Russian occupation. Sometimes Russian troops fortify a captured Ukranian apartment block, and sometimes that means Ukranian artillery ends up demolishing the place with the Russian troops inside. That’s war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3007 "2023-12-29T03:15:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There are circumstances where hospitals may become a target. But I’ve been carefully following the circumstances of what happened at each hospital in this thread, as have multiple agencies like WHO, like Doctors without Borders, like the UN. And none of the hospitals showed any evidence that Hamas were operating out of any of the hospitals. And this is where we go round and round and round, necause the director of Al Shifa said the IDF was lying, and never mind the piles of weapons or video footage of hostages being kept in the hospital, or the cells under Shifa, or _the fact that the director of the hospital is the brother of a hogh ranking Hamas commander_ or the fact that he answers to the Gazan ministry of health which we have established is _literally Hamas_. But if a Hamas appointed brother of a Hamas leader’s word can’t be trusted, what can? I guess I’m just too cynical. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3008 "2023-12-29T03:16:19Z")
Why’s Israel so brazen when we supply them with so much? I don’t understand that aspect. Just reasking this question, because I’ve asked it before, (even prior) and didn’t receive a response. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3009 "2023-12-29T03:19:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > If this war goes on another six months, we will be looking at anywhere between 20 and 50 thousand child amputees. > > Textbook extrapolation fallacy. You are basing the idea that the war would continue at the current rate for the next since months on what, exactly? > > As has been noted a number of times alread, this war has gone through a number of phases, starting with an air campaign, then a series of ground operations at different scales. As more of Gaza comes under IDF control, the strategies in use by the IDF have continued to shift. > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > …I think that killing children is wrong not because it looks gross, but because I think _killing children is wrong_. We should do everything we can to protect children in conflict. > > I agree completely. > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Hamas _should_ surrender. > > I agree completely. > > If you have any suggestions on how Israel can bring about a Hamas surrender while killing less children (or killing less Palestinians in general; civilian deaths are tragic regardless of their age) then I’d love to hear it; but your suggestion needs to take into account the realiry of the way Hamas conducts war. Since you were so kind to explain combined arms combat to me earlier, let me return the favor. Israel has now pushed a lot more people into southern Gaza than are normally squeezed in there. If you don’t think that Israel is going to bomb and she’ll the southern half of Gaza with at least as much vigor as they showed Northern Gaza before sending in their now known to be trigger happy soldiers, you are either fooling yourself or trying to fool others. I have no idea how many more civilian casualties there were be but it will be in the thousands. Many more times those killed in Israel on 10/7 And no matter how many times you claim to care, you obviously don’t since you just said “that’s war.” I hope you have a similar feeling when the IDF starts coming home in body bags too. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3010 "2023-12-29T03:23:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And this is where we go round and round and round, necause the director of Al Shifa said the IDF was lying, …cite please. > [@Babale](#): > > and never mind the piles of weapons or video footage of hostages being kept in the hospital, or the cells under Shifa, or _the fact that the director of the hospital is the brother of a hogh ranking Hamas commander_ or the fact that he answers to the Gazan ministry of health which we have established is _literally Hamas_. I’ve addressed all of this in this thread. None of this would make Al Shifa a valid target, and even if it were, rending it non-functional just before abandoning it was _a war crime._ And that doesn’t address the _other_ 20-odd hospitals that the IDF targeted then shut down. > [@Babale](#): > > But if a Hamas appointed brother of a Hamas leader’s word can’t be trusted, what can? I guess I’m just too cynical. You can not trust him as much as you like. That still doesn’t stop what happened at Al Shifa, the siege that resulted in multiple patient deaths, the raid, the destruction of key infrastructure, expelling hundreds of patients and thousands of people seeking shelter, then rendering the hospital non-functional any less of a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3011 "2023-12-29T03:29:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They are at risk of famine, disease and infection. And what is preventing aid from getting through to the people of Gaza is the blockade. That would be Hamas refusing to release hostages until there is a permanent ceasefire. Pretty simple thing for them to do in support of their own people. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3012 "2023-12-29T03:31:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That would be Hamas refusing to release hostages until there is a permanent ceasefire. … Israel using collective punishment of the civilian population to force Hamas to do something is called a _war crime_. Just so you understand what is being advocated here. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3013 "2023-12-29T03:38:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … Israel using collective punishment of the civilian population to force Hamas to do something is called a _war crime_. That’s not a thing that Israel is doing, nor is it something they should do; it also isn’t something they _could_ do, given the fact that Hamas doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the Palestinian people. Damaging Palestinian civilians simply isn’t a way to pressure Hamas. What Hamas _does_ respond to is their leadership or bases coming under direct threat. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3014 "2023-12-29T03:39:02Z")
What means of convincing Hamas to release hostages would you consider acceptable? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=143) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=145)