# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 145
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3015 "2023-12-29T03:41:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s not a thing that Israel is doing, …Isreal have enforced over 80 days of siege. They are stopping much needed food, water, medical supplies, fuel from getting to millions of people in need. It is driving Gaza toward famine. This is a war crime. > [@Smapti](#): > > What means of convincing Hamas to release hostages would you consider acceptable? I would eliminate all war crimes (for those that believe war crimes are things) from the equation, for starters. Thats my baseline. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3016 "2023-12-29T03:43:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I would eliminate all war crimes (for those that believe war crimes are things) from the equation, for starters. And once you’ve done that, how will you convince Hamas to release the hostages? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3017 "2023-12-29T03:46:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel using collective punishment of the civilian population to force Hamas to do something is called a _war crime_. Just so you understand what is being advocated here. Hamas using collective punishment on the civilian population to force Israel to do something is called a “war crime”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3018 "2023-12-29T03:47:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I would eliminate all war crimes (for those that believe war crimes are things) from the equation, for starters. Thats my baseline. So what would you actually _do_, aside from meaningless talking points? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3019 "2023-12-29T03:47:46Z")
According to you, this is war and bad things happen to people in wars. Forget the hostages, what is a few more dead civilians give or take in a war? Don’t let those hostages hold you back, you are just giving in to the terrorists that way. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3020 "2023-12-29T03:49:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And once you’ve done that, how will you convince Hamas to release the hostages? …if Israel stops war-criming, then that’s all I’m asking for. > [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas using collective punishment on the civilian population to force Israel to do something is called a “war crime”. Yes, there are war crimes on both sides. Israel’s war crimes have manufactured a humanitarian catastrophe that needs to _urgently stop_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3021 "2023-12-29T03:49:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if Israel stops war-criming, then that’s all I’m asking for. Declaring that Israel should stop “war-criming” doesn’t free hostages. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3022 "2023-12-29T03:50:49Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Forget the hostages, what is a few more dead civilians give or take in a war? Don’t let those hostages hold you back, you are just giving in to the terrorists that way. To be honest, I’m actually a little surprised that Israel didn’t just write them off as dead right away. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3023 "2023-12-29T03:52:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So what would you actually _do_, aside from meaningless talking points? …if Israel stops doing the war crimes, then I’d let them wage their war against Hamas. But while they continue to wage a war against the civilian population of Gaza, I’ll continue to speak out on the way they are conducting that war. > [@Smapti](#): > > Declaring that Israel should stop “war-criming” doesn’t free hostages. More hostages were freed during the humanitarian pause than during the 80 days of sustained bombing, death and destruction. If you want to free the hostages, consider going back to the negotiating table. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3024 "2023-12-29T03:54:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > More hostages were freed during the humanitarian pause than during the 80 days of sustained bombing, death and destruction. If you want to free the hostages, consider going back to the negotiating table. And then Hamas broke the deal. You can’t negotiate when one party isn’t acting in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3025 "2023-12-29T03:58:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And then Hamas broke the deal. …both sides claim the other side broke the deal. We know the IDF were shooting at people in Northern Gaza on the first day of the pause. It was caught on camera. We know they played games with who they ended up releasing. Lets not pretend that both sides didn’t come to the table in good faith. But you asked me about freeing the hostages. It seems clear that the war won’t free the hostages. Either Israel will accidentally kill them, or they get released in a negotiated exchange. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3026 "2023-12-29T03:58:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas using collective punishment on the civilian population to force Israel to do something is called a “war crime”. Yes, Hamas is commiting war crimes. I don’t think we have any thread participants who dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3027 "2023-12-29T03:59:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you want to free the hostages, consider going back to the negotiating table. Israel never left. Hamas refused to come to the table initially, until they got beat up enough. Then they released some hostages, until they felt strong enough to continue fighting. Hopefully they will soon reach another breaking point and come back to the table. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3028 "2023-12-29T04:01:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yes, there are war crimes on both sides. Israel’s war crimes have manufactured a humanitarian catastrophe that needs to _urgently stop_. Hamas’s war crimes have manufactured a humanitarian catastrophe. They need to be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3029 "2023-12-29T06:35:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel never left. …I’m not sure I agree with this assertion. But lets assume that it is correct. Then Israel have even more reason to bring Hamas back to the table. If they want their hostages back, then this is the way to do it. > [@](#): > > Hamas refused to come to the table initially, until they got beat up enough. Then they released some hostages, until they felt strong enough to continue fighting. Lets be honest here. It isn’t Hamas that has gotten “beat up enough.” Its the Palestinian people. Its innocent Palestinians who have had their homes destroyed. Innocent Palestinians who are being starved. Innocent Palestinians who have limited access to healthcare. Its Innocent Palestinians who are having friends and families killed daily in a indiscriminate bombing campaign. Innocent Palestinians who are “getting beaten up” every single day. We don’t even know how many Hamas people have been killed. You can’t claim they got “beat up” when Israel aren’t even keeping track of how many they have killed. > [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas’s war crimes have manufactured a humanitarian catastrophe. Nope. Hamas have zero ability to end the siege. They could lay down their arms tomorrow, all surrender en masse, but Israel will still be the only party here that can _end the siege_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3030 "2023-12-29T07:50:29Z")
They are armoured with the righteousness of once having been victims themselves. ‘Never Again’ & all that jazz. They are fighting for their very existence, which emboldens them. For many, it’s this survival nationalism that gives the brass ones. For a religious few, it’s because Israel is theirs by God-given right, as well. ‘God is with us’ if you would… Or they’re aggressive colonial bullies who are emboldened because they know, despite their rhetoric, that no Palestinian force can _actually_ be a real existential threat to the nation of Israel after their decades of keeping them in poverty in open-air prisons while building an ultramodern technomilitaristic juggernaut next door and making most adults cogs in its wheels. But it makes a convenient myth to parade that performative existential fear while calling all opponents antisemites. I don’t know, maybe a bit of all of that? Who can really say (without being called a Jew hater, that is)? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3031 "2023-12-29T08:07:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or they’re aggressive colonial bullies who are emboldened because they know, despite their rhetoric, that no Palestinian force can _actually_ be a real existential threat to the nation of Israel Hamas doesn’t have to be able to destroy Israel to be a threat to its people. 10/7 proved that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3032 "2023-12-29T11:13:42Z")
No-one’s said Hamas isn’t _a_ threat. So what this is related to, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3033 "2023-12-29T12:49:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Now, if you want to talk actual Bibi criticisms, he is allowing his cronies to rob the state blind to line the pockets of their ultra Orthodox supporters, at a time when there are hundreds of thousands of displaced Israelis and thousands of struggling or shuttered businesses who are told that any relief funds are locked up for the war effort. Agreed and the purpose of this war i to keep him in power. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3034 "2023-12-29T12:52:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas doesn’t have to be able to destroy Israel to be a threat to its people. 10/7 proved that. 10/7 also proved that if Hamas ever got their hands on a dirty bomb, sarin gas or any other WMD then they’d definitely use it, and they’d most likely do so in a way calculated to maximise civilian casualties. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=144) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=146)