# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 146
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3035 "2023-12-29T12:56:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To be honest, I’m actually a little surprised that Israel didn’t just write them off as dead right away. The hostages are a major propaganda asset for both Israel and Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3036 "2023-12-29T12:57:36Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Agreed and the purpose of this war i to keep him in power. …no, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3037 "2023-12-29T13:45:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …no, it isn’t. … it is. Hamas and others within Gaza were seen as threats to Israel prior to Oct 7, that is why there was a fence. But it was a farce. It was not properly manned and maintained. There was no caution imposed like not having a festival near the border. There was no surveillance on the perimeter road. There was no reaction force in readiness of a breach. There was no response within hours of an actual breach being detected. All of this is confirmed by links upthread. It was a failure of Netanyahu’s government. Not wanting to waste a crisis Netanyahu declared an emergency and wagged the dog. As did LBJ with the Gulf of Tonkin, Reagan in Grenada and Bush in Iraq. Netanyahu is secure in office as long as he can extend the war. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3038 "2023-12-29T13:49:24Z")
From Netanyahu’s perspective, it may be. Do you really doubt that he would try to use the war to keep himself in power? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3039 "2023-12-29T14:02:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you really doubt that he would try to use the war to keep himself in power? Netanyahu is definitely going to do his best to try and cling to power, war or no war; but Crane didn’t say “Netanyahu is trying to cling to power”, he said: > [@Crane](#): > > the purpose of this war i to keep him in power. This isn’t Netanyahu’s war. The Prime Minister of Israel is **not** Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. You can’t just slap a blue and while coat of paint over the American system with the president and the joint chiefs of staffs and claim that you understand Israel/IDF policy making. (Not that you are doing this, but others definitely are) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3040 "2023-12-29T14:17:46Z")
No argumentation intended: what individuals are the primary decision-makers for the IDF in this war, and what is their background? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3041 "2023-12-29T14:19:08Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I have a (potentially) stupid question; > > Why’s Israel so brazen when we supply them with so much? I don’t understand that aspect. I’ll ask a 4th time. Is this the right place to ask questions? Straight Dope? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3042 "2023-12-29T14:26:00Z")
…”we”? If I’m supplying them, let me just say here and now: I’m fine with them being, uh, brazen. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3043 "2023-12-29T14:28:16Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I’ll ask a 4th time. Is this the right place to ask questions? What is @MrDibble, chopped liver? He gave his answers to your questions a few posts upthread. _My_ view is that there are so many assumptions and misconceptions wrapped up in your little question that I’m reminded of a clown car, so I’m not gonna touch it with a ten foot pole. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3044 "2023-12-29T14:31:30Z")
Ooops, you’re right, and my apologies. I didn’t know how else to frame that question. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3045 "2023-12-29T15:19:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The Prime Minister of Israel is **not** Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Is it not true that Netanyahu chairs the War Cabinet? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3046 "2023-12-29T15:35:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …provide a cite for the bolded, please. I’ll have to retract that, I suppose - I’m sure I recall reading it, but can’t find the exact place. The closest I can find on Google is that the IDF estimated that ratio, and that “they believe that Hamas’s overall death toll numbers are accurate.” It’s possible that I (or the sources I’m unable to find at the moment) took that to mean that the breakdown of civilians to combatants agrees with numbers provided by Hamas, but clearly that’s not what the sources I’m able to link to say. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That cite was perfectly fine. It provided multiple independent verifiable sources. Re-checked your link, and it does not. Additionally, it merely states what the hatch in question was known to have been created for. It’s true that some of the tunnels down there weren’t initially created by Hamas, the bunker under Al-Shifa was in fact built by the Israelis. But that’s hardly proof that Hamas has not repurposed it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Well yes, there _is_ question to this…Tunnels obviously exist. Whether or not it’s justified is certainly debatable, but my point was simply that Hamas is known to use tunnels in their operations, and that it’s entirely reasonable to believe that this includes co-opting existing tunnel infrastructure. Knowing the original purpose of the underground access hatch does not contradict the assertion that it is being used for Hamas’s terror operations now. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Being a “prime suspect” doesn’t make them legitimate targets. Having been used to commit harm to the enemy (i.e., Israel in this case) takes them out of the presumption of protection. I see nothing in the text that says it needs to be specifically proven on every distinct occasion of hostility. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You acknowledge that Hamas didn’t use hospitals as bases, right? Absolutely not. Even IF they were not used as command and control centers, as Israel has claimed - and just because the evidence that the IDF was willing to air publicly doesn’t convince a journalists and NGOs doesn’t mean they don’t have more evidence they are keeping to themselves as intelligence assets - they were used at least as operational bases for armed Hamas fighters, and for at least some stage of the hostage-taking operation. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > With all due respect, “PR on the world stage” is a really fucking stupid reason to use hospitals as a base. Its like… Palestinians aren’t _stupid_. And setting up bases in hospitals, making themselves prime targets, in order to achieve a PR victory doesn’t make any sense at all. Of course it makes sense. That’s been the essence of the Palestinian leadership’s strategy (both by the PLO/Fatah and by Hamas) since the first intifada - produce sympathetic imagery that has the effect of other nations putting pressure on Israel to blunt the use of its military. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How many of those other recent conflicts had killed 149 UN staffers? Because the previous highest number in any other conflict since the UN started was 56. How many other recent conflicts have nearly 70 journalists been killed? Because this is over twice the number of journalists in a single conflict since the CPJ started keeping records in 1992. So Gaza has more UN workers and journalists than other conflict zones, both of which make plenty of sense. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is no reason why we should think that “the ratio of combatant-to-non-combatant casualties in other recent conflicts” is a ratio we could apply here. The raw numbers, from hospital workers to UN staffers to journalists to children are all out-of-whack from the norm. A ratio, based on previous recent conflicts doesn’t tell us anything. Because what is happening in Gaza, as has been related by every single humanitarian agency, is that this _isn’t_ like any other conflict. In other conflicts, people at least have the chance to run away. But there is no escape for the people in Gaza. So if the ratio is better in Gaza, where the non-combatants can’t escape, than it was in other conflicts where the non-combatants had the option of escape, then that speaks even better of the IDF’s efforts to minimize civilian casualties, not worse. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Firstly, cite please, secondly, why does that matter? I can’t prove a negative, and if you can’t see why it matters, then any discussion of the situation with you is pointless. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You realize the reason why Israel sent supplies of fuel, electricity, water, etc was because of the fifteen years of blockade, right? You realize that for most countries, the constant rocket attacks alone would have been long considered an act of war that would have resulted in a harsh response, rather than been shrugged off with a defensive system and efforts expended to give supplies of any kind to anyone at all in the enemy zone? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3047 "2023-12-29T20:57:05Z")
…real life is intervening, and I may not be able to return to this thread for a while. But I do want to address this: > [@cmkeller](#): > > and just because the evidence that the IDF was willing to air publicly doesn’t convince a journalists and NGOs doesn’t mean they don’t have more evidence they are keeping to themselves as intelligence assets Hospitals have _protected status_. That means they can only be attacked under very specific circumstances. And that goes well beyond just “publicly convincing journalists and NGOs.” Hospitals can’t lose their protected status based on _super-secret information_. Not even to protect assets. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Having been used to commit harm to the enemy (i.e., Israel in this case) takes them out of the presumption of protection. I see nothing in the text that says it needs to be specifically proven on every distinct occasion of hostility. In the first instance it needs to be shown that the hospital is used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an “act harmful to the enemy”. But there are caveats here. > [@Red Cross](#): > > This derives from the obligation to respect and protect the wounded and sick as well as the general rules on the conduct of hostilities that apply to attacks on any military objective. Notably, an attacking party remains bound by the principle of proportionality. The military advantage likely to be gained from attacking medical establishments or units that have lost their protected status should be carefully weighed against the humanitarian consequences likely to result from the damage or destruction caused to those facilities: such an attack may have significant incidental second- and third-order effects on the delivery of health care in the short, middle and long-term. > > An attacking party remains also bound by the obligation to take precautions in attack, in particular to do everything feasible to avoid or at least minimize harm to patients and medical personnel who may have nothing to do with those acts and for whom the humanitarian consequences will be especially dire. The following measures should be taken to minimize the direct and indirect impact of such an attack on the provision of health-care services, whenever feasible and operationally relevant: > > • Prepare a contingency plan to address the estimated disruption to health-care services and to re-establish full delivery as soon as possible. > • Consider measures both for the evacuation of patients and medical personnel and for them to be taken properly in charge. > • Interrupt the attack if the facility no longer meets the criteria leading to the loss of protected status (e.g. combatants have fled from the medical facility). > • After the attack, facilitate or implement measures for the rapid restoration of health-care services (e.g. provide military medical support for the civilian medical facility). > **[The protection of hospitals during armed conflicts: What the law says](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says)** > > What kind of specific protection do the wounded and sick enjoy in times of armed conflict?In times of armed conflict, the wounded and sick include anyone, whether military or civilian, who needs medical attention and is not, or no longer, taking part... And this is what you, nor anyone else in this thread, have addressed. In every scenario presented, including the scenario you’ve presented here, ignore the principle of proportionality, ignore contingency planning to address disruption to health-care services, on planning to re-establish full delivery as soon as possible. It ignores that Israel didn’t consider measures both for the evacuation of patients and medical personnel and for them to be taken properly in charge. Instead at every hospital they took over they _expelled_ patients and those sheltering in the hospital without taking their care into account. It ignores that Israel never interrupted their attacks, even when it was clear that the hospitals “no longer meets the criteria leading to the loss of protected status.” (Not that they even fit the criteria in the first place) It ignores that after each attack, and they have attacked every single hospital in Gaza, and taken 20 of those hospitals out of action, that Isreal didn’t “facilitate or implement measures for the rapid restoration of health-care services.” Instead, at each and every hospital they took over, the IDF deliberately destroyed equipment and infrastructure to ensure that the hospital wouldn’t be able to resume medical care. In some cases in the north, they destroyed the hospital completely. Even if Isreal has “super-secret evidence”, what they did after they took over the hospitals were _war crimes_. > [@cmkeller](#): > > they were used at least as operational bases for armed Hamas fighters, Prove it. > [@cmkeller](#): > > and for at least some stage of the hostage-taking operation. Prove it. 20 hospitals were taken out. Where is the evidence that 20 hospitals were part of this? And again: even if these two things were true, once the threat had been eliminated the hospitals should have been allowed to resume normal activities, and the IDF were obliged under international law to facilitate this. Not only did they not do this, but _they destroyed these hospitals’ ability to do so._ Taking out the hospitals, along with the siege, are the most obvious and indisputable war crimes that Israel has committed in this war. But they aren’t the only ones. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3048 "2023-12-29T21:04:00Z")
This is only tangentially related to the war, but the Israeli Supreme Court’s draft ruling on the judicial reform bill has leaked. > **[Bombshell leaked draft ruling shows High Court set to nix key judicial...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-said-set-to-nix-key-judicial-overhaul-law-bombshell-leaked-draft-ruling/)** > > Historic 15-justice panel reportedly split 8-7 in favor of nullifying reasonableness law; judiciary slams leak, says ruling still being written; coalition MKs pan brewing decision If this bears out, it’s good news for Israeli democracy and bad news for Netenyahu. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3049 "2023-12-29T21:51:02Z")
When this war is over, do y’all think Israel’s approach to this war will make it (a) less likely (b) more likely or (c) equally likely that the Palestinians will elect/support someone like Hamas in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3050 "2023-12-29T22:51:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Nope. Hamas have zero ability to end the siege. They could lay down their arms tomorrow, all surrender en masse, but Israel will still be the only party here that can _end the siege_. This is complete nonsense. The only successful way of getting food and medicine in is through ground transport which requires a cease fire or through air drops which have been coordinated with Israel. Hamas isn’t doing anything to help the people they represent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3051 "2023-12-29T23:10:56Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > When this war is over, do y’all think Israel’s approach to this war will make it (a) less likely (b) more likely or (c) equally likely that the Palestinians will elect/support someone like Hamas in the future? Interesting question. If they vote to support Hamas they’re going to want to stock up on food, water filters,solar cells and tents. You’d think seeing Egypt close their border because of the last election was a harbinger of things to come but apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3052 "2023-12-30T00:06:02Z")
Postwar Germany and Japan need to be the model for postwar Gaza - massive capital investment by Israel, in concert with the US and the Arab states, to rebuild infrastructure and restore services, coupled with the introduction of a liberal constitution that bans Hamas and other Islamist parties, and renounces war or terrorism targeted at Israel. Anything short of that and I’ll be extremely disappointed with Israel’s government. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3053 "2023-12-30T01:24:17Z")
Gaza just doesn’t have the _space_ for meaningful industrial or agricultural development though. Germany and Japan were full-sized countries, Gaza is only 140 square miles, and it’s got two and a half million people packed into it. I don’t foresee any possible way that Gaza can ever be a functioning state or country, unless Israel grants them more land, and I just don’t see that ever happening. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3054 "2023-12-30T01:25:40Z")
So the question is how were they sustaining themselves before and what changes need to be made going forward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=145) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=147)