# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3075 "2023-12-30T15:48:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The question isn’t whether we disagree. The point is that (a) you said: _“One thing I’ve learned, and this will certainly upset some people in this thread, is that Palestinians are people.”_ And (b) if you’re right and I’m wrong, then find _“some people in this thread”_ who are certainly upset by that fact. Which I answered. The people in this thread who argue that dead Palestinian children are the cost of ending Hamas are clearly stating that Palestinians have less value than Israelis, that they are less human. Gaza’s have many legitimate grievances against the Israeli government. If killing Palestinian civilians is justified then so is killing Israeli civilians. Someone arguing that killing Palestinian civilians is justified to achieve Israel’s political goals, but killing Israeli children to achieve Hamas’ goals is not justified, is saying that Palestinians are worth less than Israelis, that they are not fully human the way Israelis are. In this thread you have posters explicitly endorsing war crimes against Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3076 "2023-12-30T15:52:40Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The people in this thread who argue that dead Palestinian children are the cost of ending Hamas are clearly stating that Palestinians have less value than Israelis, that they are less human. Oh, please. The people in this thread arguing for a ceasefire without a Hamas surrender are clearly stating that the lives of Palestinians are less valuable than their desire not to read about a war on the news. > [@madmonk28](#): > > In this thread you have posters explicitly endorsing war crimes against Palestinians. No, we certainly do not. We _do_ have posters who ignore Hamas’ actions in order to accuse Israel of war crimes, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3077 "2023-12-30T15:56:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Gaza’s have many legitimate grievances against the Israeli government. If killing Palestinian civilians is justified then so is killing Israeli civilians. Someone arguing that killing Palestinian civilians is justified to achieve Israel’s political goals, but killing Israeli children to achieve Hamas’ goals is not justified, is saying that Palestinians are worth less than Israelis, that they are not fully human the way Israelis are. I’d thank you for not putting (incredibly offensive) words in my mouth if you refrained from doing so. > [@Babale](#): > > If you don’t see the difference between breaking into a Kibbutz and slaughtering and raping women and children in an attempt to destroy the country they live in and genocide their people on the one hand; and between attacking the group that perpetrated that act even if they operate out of civilian areas specifically to make counterattacking them difficult - then I cannot help you. > > The Palestinian people are people, people under the boot of a very oppressive terrorist regime that uses them as ammo in their war against Israel. The Palestinian people will continue to suffer in this cycle until the leadership causing this is removed. Hence, this war. > > And no, the fact that Netanyahu’s government is also odious does not justify Oct 7. Netanyahu is extremely bad; Smotrich and Ben Gvir are much worse, and they only exist as a political force because Bibi conjured them to keep himself out of prison. Yet on their worst day, they are not Hamas. And besides, it’s not like Hamas’ goal is to remove Bibi from power; their goal is to erase Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3078 "2023-12-30T16:15:25Z")
36 children were killed in the Oct 7 raid. To date over 5000 children have been killed by Israelis in Gaza. Thousands more are now [suffering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_injury#:~:text=Blast%20lung%20refers%20to%20severe%20pulmonary%20contusion%2C%20bleeding,death%20among%20people%20who%20initially%20survive%20an%20explosion.) the pain of burns, broken bones, crushed lungs and crushed internal organs, without access to medical care. The deliberate imposition of death and pain on thousands of uninvolved children was not necessary. The oligarchs on both sides had options. The arrogance of believing that 36 deaths somehow justify the extreme suffering of thousands of innocents is unfathomable. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3079 "2023-12-30T16:18:04Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The oligarchs on both sides had options. For just about the billionth time - if you believe this, please explain how Israel could destroy Hamas differently. (I do agree that Hamas had other options, like “don’t murder and rape a thousand people”). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3080 "2023-12-30T16:20:53Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Which I answered. The people in this thread who argue that dead Palestinian children are the cost of ending Hamas are clearly stating that Palestinians have less value than Israelis, that they are less human. See, you’re answering a different question. You said: _“One thing I’ve learned, and this will certainly upset some people in this thread, is that Palestinians are people.”_ Who — in this thread — was certainly upset? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3081 "2023-12-30T16:22:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You said: _“One thing I’ve learned, and this will certainly upset some people in this thread, is that Palestinians are people.”_ > > Who — in this thread — was certainly upset? I certainly agree that Palestinians are people, and am certainly not upset by anyone pointing this out. But now that you quoted that phrase again, it occurs to me - sorry, madmonk28, you _just_ learned that Palestinians are people _now_? What did you think they were before, a form of walrus? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3082 "2023-12-30T16:26:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I certainly agree that Palestinians are people, and am certainly not upset by anyone pointing this out. But now that you quoted that phrase again, it occurs to me - sorry, madmonk28, you _just_ learned that Palestinians are people _now_? What did you think they were before, a form of walrus? I think that people who justify the killing of thousands of Palestinian children in response the killing of dozens of Israeli children are clear that they do not see Palestine as fully human. Even if they don’t admit it to themselves. I think that embracing this dehumanizing world view is why nations allow atrocities to be committed in their name. If posters talked about Israelis the way they talk about Palestine here, they would be rightly called out. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3083 "2023-12-30T16:42:24Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think that people who justify the killing of thousands of Palestinian children in response the killing of dozens of Israeli children are clear that they do not see Palestine as fully human. Even if they don’t admit it to themselves. Gee, thanks for whitesplaining the Arab-Israeli conflict to me. I was _so_ confused about my own thoughts and feelings, but now that some dude from thousands of miles away told me how I _really_ feel, I realize I was faking all of my moral beliefs and I’m actually a genocidal monster. > [@madmonk28](#): > > If posters talked about Israelis the way they talk about Palestine here, they would be rightly called out. There have been a handful of posters who posted very derogatory or Islamophobic ideas to this thread, and they were rightly called out, including by many of those on my “side”. If you are referring to something _I_ said, go ahead and call it out. I have attempted to be precise with my language to avoid painting all Palestinians with the brush reserved for Hamas, but I welcome criticism, despite the way you and others have tried to portray me in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3084 "2023-12-30T16:49:23Z")
Israel cannot destroy Hamas. That is a self serving political slogan. In evidence Israel has murdered (knowingly killed uninvolved civilians) tens of thousands of Gazans, devastated their infrastructure and displaced a significant percent of the population. And Hamas is still firing ineffective rockets in to Israel. Since Hamas leadership is in Qatar, even depopulation of Gaza will not accomplish the stated goal. The Israeli oligarchs have chosen a durable slogan. The mission of the military is a fools errand. My statement that they had options did not include the destruction of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3085 "2023-12-30T16:54:52Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Since Hamas leadership is in Qatar, even depopulation of Gaza will not accomplish the stated goal. The Israeli oligarchs have chosen a durable slogan. The mission of the military is a fools errand. Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a person. If Hamas presence in Gaza is broken up to the point that they cannot rule Gaza nor pose a significant insurgency threat, who the fuck cares about a couple of billionaires in Qatar? Hamas would still be destroyed, even if they get to live out their lives in Qatari luxury (until their heart medication is mysteriously replaced with poison, or they suffer an unfortunate fall out a window, or…) If the IDF gains control of the entire Gaza strip - which it is well on its way to doing - > And especially if the IDF successfully hands off control of the strip to whatever group the international community can rally behind - be that a revamped PA, a coallition of Arab states, whatever - then this would constitute the effective destruction of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3086 "2023-12-30T16:59:37Z")
You are clearly triggered by my comment that some posters here don’t view Palestinians as fully human, you keep coming back to it. I would urge you to explore why, is it possible that it resonates somewhere inside you and you don’t want to admit it? When you find yourself supporting the killing thousands of children, ask yourself is there as much daylight between your side and Hamas as you would like. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3087 "2023-12-30T17:03:39Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You are clearly triggered by my comment that some posters here don’t view Palestinians as fully human, you keep coming back to it. I would urge you to explore why, is it possible that it resonates somewhere inside you and you don’t want to admit it? 🙄 Have you stopped beating your wife? I am _sensitive_ to the claim that I don’t view Palestinians as human because it is the sort of blood libel that some, Hamas included, use to try and delegitimize the existence of the State of Israel, and it is part of a long lineage of claims that have been used to slaughter my people over the last 2,000 years. When someone starts to head down that path, I’m going to call that out. > [@madmonk28](#): > > When you find yourself supporting the killing thousands of children, ask yourself is there as much daylight between your side and Hamas as you would like. For the billionth-and-one time - go ahead and propose and alternative method to get rid of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3088 "2023-12-30T17:05:48Z")
If they had a chance of actually controlling Gaza the rocket attacks would have been shut down by now. At best they will reach an angle of repose, where Hamas will provide just the leverage Netanyahu needs to justify controlling what assets (political and monetary) Gaza has to offer. Hamas and Netanyahu are parasites feeding on the same host. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3089 "2023-12-30T17:08:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For the billionth-and-one time - go ahead and propose and alternative method to get rid of Hamas. Get Netanyahu out of office, stop this ethnic cleansing campaign, bring in international peacekeeper, support a truth an reconciliation commission examine atrocities on all sides, bring the settlers to heel in the West Bank, punish settler violence committed against Palestinians, transition West Bank B and C zones into category A zones and return to the table to establish a two state solution ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3090 "2023-12-30T17:14:14Z")
And deregulate rain in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3091 "2023-12-30T17:23:07Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Get Netanyahu out of office Agreed with you there > [@madmonk28](#): > > stop this ethnic cleansing campaign First we would need to _start_ an ethnic cleansing campaign, which I strongly oppose. > [@madmonk28](#): > > bring in international peacekeeper When Hamas launches rockets are you expecting international peacekeepers to do something about that? You _do_ know that’s not how “peacekeepers” operate, right? [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/27/487625112/report-u-n-peacekeepers-did-nothing-as-south-sudanese-soldiers-raped-women](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/27/487625112/report-u-n-peacekeepers-did-nothing-as-south-sudanese-soldiers-raped-women) I would be _ecstatic_ if international peacekeepers volunteered to remove Hamas from power without Israeli involvement. That would be fantastic, and would probably result in less fighting overall as I think Hamas would lose support faster and be forced to surrender sooner because of it. But it isn’t how our world or the UN work, unfortunately. The time for international peacekeepers will be after Hamas is removed from power. > [@madmonk28](#): > > support a truth an reconciliation commission examine atrocities on all sides Sure, I’m down > [@madmonk28](#): > > bring the settlers to heel in the West Bank, Absolutely! I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Rabin was 100% correct when he said that settler ideology is a cancer on the Israeli body politic. > [@madmonk28](#): > > punish settler violence committed against Palestinians Agreed, settlers who commit violence are terrorists and should be treated as such. > [@madmonk28](#): > > transition West Bank B and C zones into category A zones and return to the table to establish a two state solution I agree, we need a two state solution, I’ve said this all along. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3092 "2023-12-30T17:39:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The time for international peacekeepers will be after Hamas is removed from power. Then never. This operation is a Hamas recruiting drive and Netanyahu knows it. Once he’s pushed Palestinians into a smaller ghetto, he merely has to wait until they lash out again to continue the ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3093 "2023-12-30T17:46:24Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Then never. This operation is a Hamas recruiting drive and Netanyahu knows it. Once he’s pushed Palestinians into a smaller ghetto, he merely has to wait until they lash out again to continue the ethnic cleansing You can keep insisting that to be the case, and I will keep telling you that this is ridiculous and based on a misunderstanding of the state of Israeli politics. There is no way that Netanyahu survives this. This isn’t _his_ war. There is a reason why all of his rivals either joined the unity government or have refrained from attacking it to hard, and that is that at the moment the entire spectrum of Israeli politicians agrees that Hamas must be taken out. That’s why Israeli criticism for Bibi isn’t focused on railing against a war we all agree is necessary, but about the way he is allowing his religious right allies to rob the country blind in the middle of that war. But by all means, keep whitesplaining Israeli politics to me. It’s fascinating, in much the same way an alternate history novel is. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3094 "2023-12-30T18:22:43Z")
Just out of curiosity what is the number of dead Palestinian children where you would draw the line? How many would it take for you to think that it wasn’t worth it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=149)