# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 149
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3095 "2023-12-30T18:44:12Z")
I’m only going to answer your last question, but please appreciate that I’m not supporting this conclusion, just reporting it. There are billions of people in the world who don’t give a crap about Israel. I don’t mean they are anti-Semitic, or anti-Zionist, they don’t even give that much of a crap. They have their own lives to deal with, perhaps even their own active war to survive, and Israel is just another random, faraway line on the map. So when they see that nation A is killing lots of civilians in nation B, they turn against nation A. Because that is what lots of people do when there is yet another war in some meaningless backwater - they pick a side and root. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3096 "2023-12-30T18:50:47Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Just out of curiosity what is the number of dead Palestinian children where you would draw the line? I’ll repeat what I said earlier: > [@Babale](#): > > It seems like many are fine with the Palestinians languishing under Hamas rule indefinitely so long as Israel doesn’t engage in any newsworthy military campaigns that offend their delicate sensibilities, and I wish someone would articulate why that is. Urban warfare is fucking hideous, especially in a place as densely populated as Gaza and against as opponent as willing to spend the lives of its own civilian population as Hamas. There is absolutely no question that any war to eliminate Gaza would take an enormous toll. In the past, I opposed a ground invasion of Gaza for that very reason. But what Oct 7 put into clear focus is the fact that the status quo was unsustainable. The hope that if we just keep our involvement in Gaza minimal Hamas would mellow out and accept a two state solution was revealed to be a particularly unfunny joke. And the fact that most of the cost of the status quo cycle was born by the Palestinians, not by Israel, also became very clear. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3097 "2023-12-30T18:53:34Z")
So, all the Palestinian children? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3098 "2023-12-30T18:55:57Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So, all the Palestinian children?. I’m no military tactician, but I cannot imagine a scenario where defeating Hamas would require that; so no, obviously not that. If that’s what a military campaign required for success, then I would consider those goals impossible to accomplish. But again, that’s pretty cartoonishly ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3099 "2023-12-30T18:56:37Z")
Ok, how about 100,000 Palestinian children? Is that too many? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3100 "2023-12-30T18:58:23Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Is that too many? I’ll turn that question around on you. How many more years of Hamas rule and continous terrorism-counterstrike violence do you want the people of Gaza to bear so that your evening news stops being so unpleasant? 5 years? 10 years? 100 years? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3101 "2023-12-30T19:01:00Z")
It’s a pretty insulting insinuation that no one actually cares about the Palestinian people besides their feelings about the nightly news. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3102 "2023-12-30T19:01:42Z")
I want the ethnic cleansing to stop now and I want Netanyahu’s support of Hamas to be investigated and punished. So, I want an immediate end to it. Hamas and Netanyahu serve each other. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3103 "2023-12-30T19:02:18Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > It’s a pretty insulting insinuation that no one actually cares about the Palestinian people besides their feelings about the nightly news It’s a pretty insulting insinuation that I don’t view the Palestinians as humans at all, yet here we are. The positions being advocated would not better the lives of Palestinians in the long term, but they would certainly calm down the evening news. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3104 "2023-12-30T19:03:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s a pretty insulting insinuation that I don’t view the Palestinians as humans at all, yet here we are. Yes we are. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3105 "2023-12-30T19:04:37Z")
If I may, part of the difficulty in answering your question is that one has to believe that this is the round of violence that will finally end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If you could guarantee me that an Israeli victory would bring actual, lasting peace I might be able to come up with a number. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3106 "2023-12-30T19:09:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m no military tactician, but I cannot imagine a scenario where defeating Hamas would require that; so no, obviously not that. So if you could be convinced that exterminating all of Palestine’s children was a military necessity, you would be on board with it? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3107 "2023-12-30T19:09:47Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > If I may, part of the difficulty in answering your question is that one has to believe that this is the round of violence that will finally end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If you could guarantee me that an Israeli victory would bring actual, lasting peace I might be able to come up with a number I certainly understand _that_ concern, and I share it myself. Obviously there are no guarantees in war, and it’s crucial that we continue our internal fight against fringe elements with the cancerous Settler ideology. I’ll tell you one thing, though - if we do not destroy Hamas, the chance of a lasting peace is 0%. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3108 "2023-12-30T19:10:05Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So if you could be convinced that exterminating all of Palestine’s children was a military necessity, you would be on board with it? Of course not. Can you read? I answered that question 1 line down, but I see you left that out of the quote in order to continue painting me as a cartoonishly evil genocider. > [@Babale](#): > > **If that’s what a military campaign required for success, then I would consider those goals impossible to accomplish**. But again, that’s pretty cartoonishly ridiculous. Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3109 "2023-12-30T19:33:29Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > For some posters here, a dead Israeli child has worth greater than a dead Palestinian child and I wish someone would articulate why that is. The value of Palestinian children is set by Hamas. The parents of those children put Hamas in power. This is an important point to repeat because their peaceful and prosperous future lies mainly within their society. They have to want it. Nobody can force them to succeed or prevent them from failure. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3110 "2023-12-30T19:35:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The value of Palestinian children is set by Hamas. The parents of those children put Hamas in power. Wtf? No, I cannot agree with this, at all. If the value of Palestinian children was set by Hamas, we know what that value would be - nothing (unless they can be used against Israel, in which case - whatever military benefit they bring). But humans are humans no matter what regime rules over them. Palestinian children are human beings and their lives are equally valuable to the lives of any other humans. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3111 "2023-12-30T20:25:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But humans are humans no matter what regime rules over them. Palestinian children are human beings and their lives are equally valuable to the lives of any other humans. Your statement falls under the time honored concept that you can’t put a value on human life. I don’t dispute it. > [@Babale](#): > > If the value of Palestinian children was set by Hamas, we know what that value would be - nothing That would be my point. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3112 "2023-12-30T20:29:15Z")
83 West Bank [Palestinian](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrirhaFe5Blo4cxi_BXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1703996421/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.unicef.org%2fpress-releases%2fnumber-children-killed-west-bank-including-east-jerusalem-reaches-unprecedented/RK=2/RS=2SPQhx19h_IcWceDC4pCs5mfLB4-) children have been killed in the last twelve weeks. If tit-for-tat is what’s behind the attack on Gaza then shouldn’t that satisfy the blood lust. That’s over 2 to 1 and the Bible allows only an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3113 "2023-12-30T20:32:27Z")
Apply that logic to WW-II and see how it plays out. All the innocent children slaughtered because war is a traveling roadshow of hell. Entire cities were leveled. The children in Gaza are not the target. Hamas is the target. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3114 "2023-12-30T20:34:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The value of Palestinian children is set by Hamas. I appreciate your honesty, if nothing else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=148) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=150)