# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/283 "2023-10-17T21:09:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Most of all, though, I don’t have nearly enough information to have an opinion at this point, and I’m not sure anyone else, outside of the killer who fired the rocket, does. Of course if the Hospital really has an ammo dump, killer seems to be rather prejudiced of a term. I’m think the Hamas ordinance people are the ones that endanged/killed the people in the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/284 "2023-10-17T21:13:19Z")
How many rocket launchers were on the roof? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/285 "2023-10-17T21:15:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Of course if the Hospital really has an ammo dump, killer seems to be rather prejudiced of a term. I’m think the Hamas ordinance people are the ones that endanged/killed the people in the hospital. If IDF rocketed a hospital full of cancer patients in order to get the ammo dump hidden within, that’s horrific behavior by both Hamas and the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/286 "2023-10-17T21:16:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How many rocket launchers were on the roof? Of the hospital? Almost certainly none. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/287 "2023-10-17T21:17:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If there’s a known ammo dump at the hospital, that also lends credence to the attack being IDF. An ammo dump being there could also mean that they’re firing the rocket off from nearby which, if it misfires, could lead to it landing on said ammo dump. There are a lot of cameras pointed at Gaza. I would suspect we will get more evidence over time. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/288 "2023-10-17T21:19:41Z")
I’ve watched various videos of it and there are rockets being fired, but at some distance from the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/289 "2023-10-17T21:20:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > An ammo dump being there could also mean that they’re firing the rocket off from nearby which, if it misfires, could lead to it landing on said ammo dump. > > There are a lot of cameras pointed at Gaza. I would suspect we will get more evidence over time. That’s a fair point–and as you say, there’ll be more evidence forthcoming. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/290 "2023-10-17T21:26:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If IDF rocketed a hospital full of cancer patients in order to get the ammo dump hidden within, that’s horrific behavior by both Hamas and the IDF. I truly hope that this was not the IDF - I wish that nobody was killed in the hospital by either side - but let’s assume there was an ammo dump at the hospital. What do you suggest happens when an enemy is intentionally using civilians as cover, contrary to international law, to fire against you leading to deaths of your own civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/291 "2023-10-17T21:31:43Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > What do you suggest happens when an enemy is intentionally using civilians as cover, contrary to international law, to fire against you leading to deaths of your own civilians? I suggest using techniques that don’t involve rocketing hospitals. Go in with infantry, or small drones, or snipers. These will be less effective at killing the enemy, but far more effective at not killing hundreds of innocents. I am not a military expert, so I won’t propose a detailed strategy; but I do know there are choices bigger than “do nothing” and smaller than “rocket the hospital.” To be clear: Hamas’s tactic of hiding behind civilians is appalling and evil. It’s evil in part because it forces Israel’s hand. When the IDF attacks Hamas _through_ the civilians, the IDF is also being evil. The enemy’s violation of international law does not give IDF a pass to also violate international law. This is, as near as I can tell, the position of every humanitarian and human rights organization. Cites available on request. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/292 "2023-10-17T21:33:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I suggest using techniques that don’t involve rocketing hospitals. Go in with infantry, or small drones, or snipers. These will be less effective at killing the enemy, but far more effective at not killing hundreds of innocents. > > To be clear: Hamas’s tactic of hiding behind civilians is appalling and evil. It’s evil in part because it forces Israel’s hand. When the IDF attacks Hamas _through_ the civilians, the IDF is also being evil. > > The enemy’s violation of international law does not give IDF a pass to also violate international law. > > Cites available on request. This is not tenable. The Palestinians have to stop Hamas from using such tactics. Blaming the IDF is unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/293 "2023-10-17T21:34:36Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > This is not tenable. The Palestinians have to stop Hamas from using such tactics. Blaming the IDF is unrealistic. It’s not remotely unrealistic. Both parties can be at fault. The people with guns bear the blame before the people without guns, so Hamas gets blamed first, then IDF, then civilians. It’s completely unrealistic to blame Palestinian civilians for being used as shields. If this is not tenable, the “tenable” alternative is to accept the bombing of hospitals with hundreds of patients inside. That, I aver, is what’s not tenable. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/294 "2023-10-17T21:35:58Z")
They outnumber Hamas. It is time to throw off such oppressors that use such tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/295 "2023-10-17T21:36:41Z")
This is victim-blaming. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/296 "2023-10-17T21:39:07Z")
Sure, nice phrase, but not realistic. Without evidence, you appear to be condemning the IDF. Why don’t you wait before you throw around terms like “Killer”. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/297 "2023-10-17T21:40:52Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > They outnumber Hamas. It is time to throw off such oppressors that use such tactics. What would you suggest the Palestinian civilians do? Throw stones at the people with guns? Palestinians know full well the consequences of that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/298 "2023-10-17T21:41:25Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Sure, nice phrase, but not realistic. When “realistic” is a synonym for “killing hundreds of hospital patients,” the word has lost its original meaning. How have we gotten to this point, that people are genuinely arguing that bombing hundreds of hospital patients is a legitimate tactic? Surely we can have a baseline that _some_ acts are unacceptable, no matter what the enemy has done? Have we come so far from 1949? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/299 "2023-10-17T21:42:32Z")
Did it even happen? Or are you assuming it was the IDF? How low are the scum using human shields? I can’t think of much that is lower. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/300 "2023-10-17T21:42:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s not remotely unrealistic. Both parties can be at fault. The people with guns bear the blame before the people without guns, so Hamas gets blamed first, then IDF, then civilians. It _is_ unrealistic, though. These rockets are being fired from deep within Gaza. Israel has some good special forces units, but even they can’t infiltrate into the center of Gaza to eliminate rocket launch sites with small arms. Snipers cannot shoot without line of sight whereas rockets can be lobbed over adjacent buildings. And Israel does use drones, to fire precision missiles - small drones carrying small arms that are capable of engaging militants from miles away sound awesome but they are not a technology that currently exists. Indirect fire (artillery or rocket) or aerial bombardment are the only methods Israel has of responding to rocket strikes short of a ground assault that secured the whole strip. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/301 "2023-10-17T21:47:24Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > They outnumber Hamas. It is time to throw off such oppressors that use such tactics Big talk for somebody sitting fat and happy in America on the Internet. Remind me again how successful the Arab Spring actually wound up being, or for that matter the last time a civilian population with no power or weapons managed to throw off the oppressor. The whole situation sucks. Blaming a civilian population that is 50% children is just low. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/302 "2023-10-17T21:48:15Z")
Blaming the Israelis for Hamas’s horrors is low. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=16)