# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 150
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3115 "2023-12-30T20:35:29Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > If tit-for-tat is what’s behind the attack on Gaza then shouldn’t that satisfy the blood lust. Tit for tat vengence would be wrong. For the billionth-and-second time, this is about removing Hamas from power so this (“this” encompassing both Hamas’s attack and the IDF response) doesn’t have to happen again… and again… and again… and again… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3116 "2023-12-30T20:37:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For the billionth-and-second time, this is about removing Hamas from power so this (“this” encompassing both Hamas’s attack and the IDF response) doesn’t have to happen again… and again… and again… and again… I asked before, and I’ll ask again: who is responsible for directing IDF’s general approaches to the war? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3117 "2023-12-30T20:37:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Apply that logic to WW-II Oh no! The US and the UK deliberately devastated civilian populations hoping to intimidate them into rebelling against their governments. It didn’t, either in Europe or the Pacific. There wasn’t any eye for an eye involved. The civilians of Tokyo, Dresden and Hamburg were the target. Just as they are in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3118 "2023-12-30T20:42:58Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I appreciate your honesty, if nothing else. It’s not honesty, it’s an observation. Hama’s value of their children differs from mine. Hamas needs to be defeated in every sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3119 "2023-12-30T20:45:21Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Oh no! The US and the UK deliberately devastated civilian populations hoping to intimidate them into rebelling against their governments. It didn’t, either in Europe or the Pacific. There wasn’t any eye for an eye involved. The civilians of Tokyo, Dresden and Hamburg were the target. You left out Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > [@Crane](#): > > Just as they are in Gaza. If that were true the war would have lasted a week. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3120 "2023-12-30T20:54:38Z")
But, you know that is not possible. Hamas is a belief that’s alive in the population. Netanyahu has no intent of eliminating Hamas. He’s just surfing a political wave. There are 2 million Palestinians in Gaza. He can’t kill or deport them all. Hamas will still be there when he catches the next wave. As I have said upthread ‘eliminating Hamas’ is just a slogan to deflect attention from the Government/IDF total failure on Oct 7. It is a wag the dog operation. I believe that is where we diverge. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3121 "2023-12-30T20:58:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Netanyahu has no intent of eliminating Hamas. Again, if that were true the war would have lasted a week. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3122 "2023-12-30T20:58:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If that were true the war would have lasted a week. That is an odd claim. Strategic bombing had little effect. There was little loss in production, it boosted morale and there was no political uprising. So, what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3123 "2023-12-30T21:00:07Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Hamas is a belief that’s alive in the population. No, Hamas is an organization. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3124 "2023-12-30T21:01:03Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > So, what’s your point? My point is that your statement is wrong. If the object was to destroy all of Gaza it would have taken a week. There would be no warnings or precision bombing. It would just be bombing until every building was leveled. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3125 "2023-12-30T21:10:11Z")
No, the bombing only strengthened the will of the enemy to continue the battle. There were tons of warning pamphlets dropped in Europe and Japan. The only thing lacking was the absurd propaganda about avoiding civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3126 "2023-12-30T21:11:59Z")
Moderating: > [@madmonk28](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I’m no military tactician, but I cannot imagine a scenario where defeating Hamas would require that; so no, obviously not that. > > So if you could be convinced that exterminating all of Palestine’s children was a military necessity, you would be on board with it? As @Babale pointed out, the very next sentence of their post said that if the only way to achieve a military objective was to kill all of Palestine’s children, they would consider that military objective unobtainable. So you have plucked this sentence out of context to make them look monstrous. That’s a serious offense. This is a warning. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3127 "2023-12-30T21:16:12Z")
Follow up question. If the current IDF actions don’t actually eliminate Hamas, or end up leading to the creation of Samah, which is reverse Hamas and even worse, and the conflict between Israel and Palestine continues, will you reevaluate how you feel about the civilian Palestinian deaths? Not to put too fine a point in it, but defeating Hamas (while important) would be meaningless if it doesn’t lead to long-term peace. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3128 "2023-12-30T21:18:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I asked before, and I’ll ask again: who is responsible for directing IDF’s general approaches to the war? To follow up: I’m finding that [Herzi Halevi - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzi_Halevi) is the Chief of the General Staff of the IDF, which I _think_ is the one making military decisions? Am I wrong? He lives in a settlement in the West Bank. Is this relevant when thinking about his political stance and about what biases may affect his approach to the war? From the outside, it looks very much to me like whoever is making IDF’s decisions is _not_ prioritizing Gaza civilians; rather, they’re prioritizing shock-and-awe tactics, possibly with an unconscious desire for vengeance, and possibly with a racist disregard for Palestinian life, and possibly with a desire to promote a propagandistic message that this approach to the war is the only possible approach. But I’d love to know more about who’s in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3129 "2023-12-30T21:34:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I asked before, and I’ll ask again: who is responsible for directing IDF’s general approaches to the war? The head of the IDF is Herzi Halevi. I’m not his biggest fan, but he was among the first to take responsibility for Oct 7 and I have read reports that say he plans to resign after the war, which I respect if true (if only our PM had this much integrity…) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3130 "2023-12-30T21:42:42Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Follow up question. If the current IDF actions don’t actually eliminate Hamas, or end up leading to the creation of Samah, which is reverse Hamas and even worse, and the conflict between Israel and Palestine continues, will you reevaluate how you feel about the civilian Palestinian deaths? That would be an enormous waste and tremendous tragedy, and whoever dropped the ball and caused the peace process to fail would go down alongside Yigal Amir at the top of the list of Israelis who have been most destructive to the region. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3131 "2023-12-30T21:47:16Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > No, the bombing only strengthened the will of the enemy to continue the battle. There were tons of warning pamphlets dropped in Europe and Japan. The only thing lacking was the absurd propaganda about avoiding civilian casualties. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Germany and Japan were defeated. Where is this strengthened will you’re talking about? Not only that they are major trading partners with their former enemies and pillars of the Free World. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3132 "2023-12-30T21:47:27Z")
Thank you, that is a very fair take. I appreciate that you are hoping for the optimum outcome for Israel here. I believe we won’t know that outcome until long after the bullets start flying. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3133 "2023-12-30T21:48:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The head of the IDF is Herzi Halevi. I’m not his biggest fan Given what you know about him, is it possible/plausible/likely that he is letting a desire for vengeance, an expansionist tendency, or a racist or Islamophobic bias influence his military decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3134 "2023-12-30T21:48:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > From the outside, it looks very much to me like whoever is making IDF’s decisions is _not_ prioritizing Gaza civilians; rather, they’re prioritizing shock-and-awe tactics, possibly with an unconscious desire for vengeance, and possibly with a racist disregard for Palestinian life, and possibly with a desire to promote a propagandistic message that this approach to the war is the only possible approach. But I’d love to know more about who’s in charge. …I’ve shared this before, but this could be instructive. > **[‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets)** > > Concerns over data-driven ‘factory’ that significantly increases the number of targets for strikes in the Palestinian territory When they first started using the system, they went from 50 targets a year, to _100 targets a day_. There simply is no _shortage of targets_ in this campaign. I don’t see it as deliberate “shock-and-awe tactics”. It’s more they are simply going through the process. > [@](#): > > “We prepare the targets automatically and work according to a checklist,” a source who previously worked in the target division told +972/Local Call. “It really is like a factory. We work quickly and there is no time to delve deep into the target. The view is that we are judged according to how many targets we manage to generate.” > > A separate source told the publication the Gospel had allowed the IDF to run a “mass assassination factory” in which the “emphasis is on quantity and not on quality”. A human eye, they said, “will go over the targets before each attack, but it need not spend a lot of time on them”. How is it picking targets? > [@](#): > > Multiple sources familiar with the IDF’s targeting processes confirmed the existence of the Gospel to +972/Local Call, saying it had been used to produce automated recommendations for attacking targets, such as the private homes of individuals _suspected_ of being Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives. > > In recent years, the target division has helped the IDF build a database of what sources said was between 30,000 and 40,000 suspected militants. Systems such as the Gospel, they said, had played a critical role in building lists of individuals authorised to be assassinated. Key word being _suspected_. They’ve got a list of suspected militants that have been authorised to be assassinated. That could, quite possibly, include people detained at some stage for throwing rocks sometime in the last twenty years and released. And if you don’t even know you are on the list, you don’t even know if you are a target or not. It puts the whole “Hamas are hiding among civilians” in context. You look at the pattern of attacks. How Gaza has been turned into a series of grids. > **[Israeli grid maps make life in Gaza ‘macabre game of Battleships’, say aid...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/02/israeli-grid-system-makes-life-in-gaza-macabre-game-of-battleships-say-aid-workers)** > > Online system designed to order precise evacuations inaccessible to those without power or network access How people have been told to evacuate to a specific area…then that area gets bombed. > **[Israel said Gazans could flee to this neighbourhood - then it was hit](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-said-gazans-could-flee-to-this-neighbourhood-then-it-was-hit-13034936)** > > A Sky News visual investigation shows a building in Deir al Balah was hit one day after civilians were told they could flee to the city. Israel says it struck military targets in the area that day. The UN told Sky News that such strikes had "no... If this bombing campaign looks as if it’s being effectively run by an AI run amok…it’s because it is. It’s a peek into our dystopian future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=149) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=151)