# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 151
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3135 "2023-12-30T21:51:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He lives in a settlement in the West Bank. Is this relevant when thinking about his political stance and about what biases may affect his approach to the war? To an extent, I am sure it is. More relevant perhaps is the fact that he is Orthodox. While he lives in a settlement, he lives in what is essentially a subrurb of Modi’in, which is in Israel proper; there are settlements and there are settlements, and he’s no Hilltop Youth or anything like that. Kfar HaOranim went 80% for left wing opposition parties at the last election, for example. He has been butting heads with the Netanyahu regime, over political by Netanyahu and his religious right, meddling in the IDF, and so on - here’s one such example from just before the war: > **[PM’s son shares a post calling Herzi Halevi worst-ever IDF chief](https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-son-shares-a-post-calling-herzi-halevi-worst-ever-idf-chief/)** > > Post by right-wing journalist says army chief of staff standing by while reservists shirk duties; defense minister jumps to Halevi's defense, calling him 'most excellent' officer ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3136 "2023-12-30T21:59:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Given what you know about him, is it possible/plausible/likely that he is letting a desire for vengeance, an expansionist tendency, or a racist or Islamophobic bias influence his military decisions? He has been pretty firm about keeping politics out of the IDF, so it is not always easy to tell what his personal stance is on things like that. He has both during this war and in speeches to other IDF leaders or troops repeatedly emphasized the importance of behacing humanely during war, and has harshly criticized actions taken by the IDF or by other commanders at various points. So I certainly don’t view him as particularly expansionist or Islamophobic. But like I said, sharing his politics isn’t part of his job. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3137 "2023-12-30T22:02:53Z")
Pulled from another thread, to avoid hijacking it: > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/529): > > I’ve been an infantry squad leader. If I was advancing through an enemy city, and someone opened fire on my men from a house, I would call an airstrike on that house, whether or not I knew whether there were civilians in it. Any squad leader in any army in any war would call an airstrike on that house; hell, _Captain America_ would call an airstrike on that house. That’s the sort of situation we’re dealing with here. Tempting though it is to debate whether Captain America would call in an airstrike on a hospital with a working neonatal unit, I’m not sure that’d prove productive. It _does_ seem to me that much of the airstrikes in this campaign are being called in with much less provocation than someone actively firing from within a specific building. Do you agree? > [@Babale](#): > > He has been pretty firm about keeping politics out of the IDF, so it is not always easy to tell what his personal stance is on things like that. He has both during this war and in speeches to other IDF leaders or troops repeatedly emphasized the importance of behacing humanely during war, and has harshly criticized actions taken by the IDF or by other commanders at various points. I appreciate that. That said, the actions taken by the IDF in this war seem really harsh to me. As the war has progressed, I’ve found myself more and more outraged at the approach to the war. Certainly Hamas is carrying on a propaganda campaign, and critics of the IDF need to be aware of that and look with a skeptical eye on all sources. At the same time, the IDF is carrying on a propaganda campaign, and I worry that too many defenders of the IDF aren’t viewing their actions with a sufficiently skeptical eye. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3138 "2023-12-30T22:04:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There simply is no _shortage of targets_ in this campaign. I don’t see it as deliberate “shock-and-awe tactics”. It’s more they are simply going through the process. Overreliance on an AI targeting system certainly sounds possible. However, every strike is approved to go by multiple humans, who have the opportunity to overrule it. The _way_ in which the AI is utilized is up to people, and I suspect there are some motivations there that go beyond “do the minimum necessary harm to civilians in order to take out Hamas.” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3139 "2023-12-30T22:13:22Z")
…South Africa has launched a case against Israel at UN’s international court of justice accusing them of genocide. Link to PDF document. > **[192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB The data for this report was up-to-date up till the 12th of December. Its remarkable how much worse things have gotten since. From 14 hospitals partially functioning to only 9 today. From 15,000 people killed to well over 20,000. And Israel have only just _started_ the second phase of the war, now targeting central Gaza. International legal experts explain that one of the most difficult parts of proving a case for genocide is showing intent. International legal experts also say that this isn’t the case here. In the document, from page 60, the various statements made by different officials at all levels of government have been gathered in one place. I’d encourage people to at least make an effort to read it first before dismissing it outright. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3140 "2023-12-30T22:13:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I have no idea what you’re talking about. Two good books on the subject are “The Bombing War” by Richard Overy and “Racing the Enemy” by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3141 "2023-12-30T22:20:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Overreliance on an AI targeting system certainly sounds possible. However, every strike is approved to go by multiple humans, who have the opportunity to overrule it. The _way_ in which the AI is utilized is up to people, and I suspect there are some motivations there that go beyond “do the minimum necessary harm to civilians in order to take out Hamas.” …I think its a combination of many different things. The Gospel gives them cover to say “we are targeting Hamas.” But if you also want intent, then I’d refer you to page 60 of the South African case to the International Court. Its all there. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3142 "2023-12-31T00:14:44Z")
…posted by the Director of UNRWA Affairs - Gaza, Thomas White. If anyone is of any doubt how desperate the humanitarian situation is in Gaza right now, even after having read and digested that submission to the International Court, then maybe this video will help. Half a million people crowded into Rafah. > ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3143 "2023-12-31T00:53:17Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Two good books on the subject are “The Bombing War” by Richard Overy and “Racing the Enemy” by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa. You expect me to read 2 books with no quotes to explain a point you’re trying to make on why Germany and Japan were strengthened in a war they lost? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3144 "2023-12-31T00:57:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If anyone is of any doubt how desperate the humanitarian situation is in Gaza right now, even after having read and digested that submission to the International Court, then maybe this video will help. Half a million people crowded into Rafah. They could be doing airdrops to avoid all of this with aircraft out of Lebanon and drones out of Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3145 "2023-12-31T01:00:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They could be doing airdrops to avoid all of this with aircraft out of Lebanon and drones out of Egypt. …not without Israel’s permission. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3146 "2023-12-31T01:07:50Z")
They’ve already approved the planes in the past. And what are they going to do about drones? Shoot them down? They would be the world’s most expensive pinatas raining food down on people. But we could go with whatever Hamas has planned. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3147 "2023-12-31T01:13:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They’ve already approved the planes in the past. …irrelevant. Israel are enforcing a _blockade_. Multiple countries, humanitarian agencies and the United Nations have pleaded for more supplies to be let in, either by land, sea or by air. Israel have denied those pleas. Until they change their minds, the delivery method doesn’t matter. > [@Magiver](#): > > And what are they going to do about drones? The logistics and the amount of drones required to feed 2.3 million people for even a _single day_ would be unfathomable, let alone adding water, and fuel, and medical supplies. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3148 "2023-12-31T01:14:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The logistics and the amount of drones required to feed 2.3 million people for even a _single day_ would be unfathomable, let alone adding water, and fuel, and medical supplies. then we go with whatever Hamas comes up with. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3149 "2023-12-31T01:15:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > then we go with whatever Hamas comes up with. …the only thing that can be done here is for Israel to lift the blockade. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3150 "2023-12-31T01:16:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the only thing that can be done here is for Israel to lift the blockade. That would be up to Hamas to negotiate starting with a release of hostages. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3151 "2023-12-31T01:20:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That would be up to Hamas to negotiate starting with a release of hostages. But you knew that. …the siege of Gaza is a war crime by Israel. And as argued by the South African submission to the International Court, are genocidal in character. Palestinians are not Hamas. They cannot be punished for the actions of Hamas. Doing as you suggest is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3152 "2023-12-31T01:55:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the siege of Gaza is a war crime by Israel. Sorry no. the negotiation for a humanitarian ceasefire takes 2 parties. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3153 "2023-12-31T01:59:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Palestinians are not Hamas Hamas IS the government of the Palestinians in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3154 "2023-12-31T02:04:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sorry no. the negotiation for a humanitarian ceasefire takes 2 parties. The decision to end the siege only requires one party. And that party, in this instance, is Israel. > [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas IS the government of the Palestinians in the West Bank. Its an illegal siege targeting the civilian population of Gaza. It doesn’t matter who the government is. The civilian population are suffering. And if the siege continues for another month, we will be looking at hundreds of thousands of dead, all at the hands of the country that is enforcing the siege, which is Israel. I won’t engage you any further on this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=150) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=152)