# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 153
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3175 "2024-01-01T20:38:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Netanyahu and the Israeli government were not doing this. According to this from the Times of Israel they were: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) > [@](#): > > Hamas needs to be defeated. Yes they do. Netanyahu and his right-wing allies similarly should be removed from power. They are also enemies of peace in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3176 "2024-01-01T20:46:50Z")
And that’s the point of the operation in Gaza. Using up old munitions and showing off new electronic products makes the $$$$ flow. That and propaganda keeps Netanyahu in power. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3177 "2024-01-01T22:53:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Netanyahu and his right-wing allies similarly should be removed from power. They are also enemies of peace in the region. Good news on that front - the judicial reform is officially dead. > **[Israel Supreme Court strikes down judicial reforms](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67859177)** > > The controversial plans triggered nationwide protests last year against Benjamin Netanyahu's government. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3178 "2024-01-02T00:56:48Z")
More on how Netanyahu and his allies helped Hamas stay in power: > **[Netanyahu wants to make Qatar the fall guy for October 7 massacre. Don't let him](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-01/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-wants-to-make-qatar-the-fall-guy-for-october-7-massacre-dont-let-him/0000018c-c45d-dcff-adbf-cefff5250000)** > > \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3179 "2024-01-02T15:46:24Z")
This NYT article has details on [ID F Oct 7](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/30/world/middleeast/israeli-military-hamas-failures.html) failures. In particular the number of breaks in the border fence and the attack on the IDF base at Re’im. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3180 "2024-01-02T16:22:04Z")
Lack of a workable strategy combined with inappropriate tactics and confused command structure now have the IDF stalled out. Sending members of an elite workforce into Gaza as cannon fodder was unproductive. IDF goals of recovering hostages and eliminating Hamas have failed. The best option now is to play the propaganda card. Agree to a cease fire and label any increased flow of Gaza aid as a massive Israeli humanitarian effort. And, make whatever prisoner release is required for the return of, and accounting for, all hostages. Declare victory and leave the field of battle. It can only get worse. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3181 "2024-01-02T16:25:37Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > IDF goals of recovering hostages and eliminating Hamas have failed. Since IDF operations are ongoing, I have no idea how you can possibly declare that they’ve failed. Meanwhile, in reality, the IDF continues to make significant gains: > ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3182 "2024-01-02T17:28:09Z")
The IDF has a presence in the blue areas. It has not eliminated Hamas or destroyed its ability to wage war. The Civilian population is returning to those areas, Hamas with them. And the only hostages returned were under a cease fire not as a result of any rescue effort by the IDF. Israel has far exceeded Hamas in barbarity and cruelty. The Oct 7 card has been played. Netanyahu has strengthened his position. Biden’s IDF support may require that he step down as a presidential candidate. The Israeli economy will take a severe hit. Hamas leadership in Qatar is unaffected. Hamas is still launching rockets into Tel Aviv. Hamas is winning. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3183 "2024-01-02T17:30:05Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > And the only hostages returned were under a cease fire not as a result of any rescue effort by the IDF. Hamas said they will not come to the table unless Israel withdraws unconditionally. Then the IDF pounded them a bit and they changed their mind. > [@Crane](#): > > Netanyahu has strengthened his position Your analysis is completely disconnected from reality, as exemplified by this point. No, he most certainly has not. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3184 "2024-01-02T17:32:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Your analysis is completely disconnected from reality, as exemplified by this point. No, he most certainly has not. Oh…Who’s in charge? All he has to do is incrementally keep it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3185 "2024-01-02T17:34:35Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Oh…Who’s in charge? All he has to do is incrementally keep it that way You said: > [@Crane](#): > > Netanyahu has strengthened his position. Now you say, “he hasn’t been removed yet”. My neck hurts from twisting my neck fast enough to follow those goal posts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3186 "2024-01-02T17:37:32Z")
Saleh Arouri, top Hamas official, killed by IDF: > **[Top Hamas official Saleh Arouri, who headed West Bank operations, killed in...](https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-beirut-explosion-suburbs-hezbollah-israel-2a43fe948e8cb49c64b34bb963d77f64)** > > Arouri, one of the founders of Hamas’ military wing, had headed the group’s presence in the West Bank. My favorite line, from the WaPo’s story: > [@](#): > > Hamas said Israel had carried out “cowardly assassinations” Oh hell no. Accuse IDF of carrying out “cowardly airstrikes against hospitals,” and you might have a point. But specifically targeting Hamas leaders? Let’s please see more of this, and let’s please everyone encourage this! That’s what IDF needs to be focusing on! Also protip: if you’re helping coordinate mass murder of children, your calling other people “cowardly” just doesn’t pack a punch. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3187 "2024-01-02T17:39:33Z")
Indeed…I believe his position today is more secure than it was on Oct 6. I consider that strengthened. Whether or not his position s strong is another issue. He’s a well entrenched skillful politician. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3188 "2024-01-02T17:42:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Indeed…I believe his position today is more secure than it was on Oct 6. This is almost certainly untrue. Bibi is trying his damnedest to stay in power, as he always has; and he’s cynically manipulating the Israel-Palestine conflict for his own purposes, as he always has; and he’s willing to let a lot of people die and suffer horrifically if he sees political benefit in it, as he always has. And everyone else needs to be casting a super jaundiced eye on his actions because of his appalling cynicism. And he’s been too successful at shoring up political power by waving the bloody shirt. But he’s nowhere near as strong as he was on October 6. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3189 "2024-01-02T17:45:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Bibi is trying his damnedest to stay in power, as he always has; and he’s cynically manipulating the Israel-Palestine conflict for his own purposes Agreed, and by wagging the dog in Gaza he’s bought himself some time. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3190 "2024-01-02T18:38:33Z")
The thing about “top officials”, especially in terrorist groups, is that there’s always more and it never seems to make a difference. How many “Al Qaeda number two” officials did the US kill over twenty years with no apparent effect? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3191 "2024-01-02T21:59:48Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Biden’s IDF support may require that he step down as a presidential candidate. Ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3192 "2024-01-02T22:09:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Crane](#): > > > > Biden’s IDF support may require that he step down as a presidential candidate. > > Ridiculous Oh man, I missed this earlier. Yeah, that’s the most ridiculous part of the post. Why on Earth would Biden step down as presidential candidate? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3193 "2024-01-03T02:00:37Z")
…the war on hospitals continues. This one killed five people, including an infant, and has resulted in many people abandoning the hospital, fearful of what has happened at other hospitals in Gaza happening there. From Tedros: > [@](#): > > I deplore today’s strikes on the > > [@PalestineRCS](https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS) > > -run Al-Amal hospital in the southern [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click) city of Khan Younis, which severely damaged the Palestine Red Crescent Society training centre located within the hospital complex. > > … > > The attacks, according to the PRCS, killed at least five civilians, including a 5-day old infant. 14,000 people were sheltering at the hospital in the besieged southern [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click) city of Khan Younis. Many of them have now left, and those remaining are extremely fearful for their safety and planning to leave a place they had turned to for refuge and protection. Hospitals, ambulances, health workers, and people seeking care must be protected, at all times, under international humanitarian law. Today’s bombardments are unconscionable. Gaza’s health system is already on its knees, with health and aid workers continuously stymied in their efforts to save lives due to the hostilities. > > … > > Indeed, WHO’s movements, particularly in northern Gaza and increasingly in the south, have been severely impeded by the ongoing violence inside Gaza. Our operations are further impeded when essential local partners, like the > > [@PalestineRCS](https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS) > > , are themselves needlessly impacted by the strikes. This on top of widespread deaths, suffering and decimation of homes, roads and other infrastructure across this tiny coastal strip of land. If the conditions for a cease-fire in hostilities have not been met by now, I do not know what it will take. WHO reiterates that health must never be a target during conflicts, and all effort must be taken to protect health facilities, health workers, and patients. > ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3194 "2024-01-03T03:22:36Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > The thing about “top officials”, especially in terrorist groups, is that there’s always more and it never seems to make a difference. How many “Al Qaeda number two” officials did the US kill over twenty years with no apparent effect? I’m not sure how you’re getting “no apparent effect.” Leaders aren’t fungible. They have connections, experience, and institutional knowledge. Al Qaeda didn’t manage a whole lot of effective attacks on the United States over the last two decades, did they? There’s a shit-ton to criticize about the US’s war on terror, but the specific targeting of top officials is about the least bad part of that endeavor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=152) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=154)